Wanted: Info on Shaolin Do Karate

“	Cheers mate	”

I assuming the beer these two are clanging together is from a fine British pub correct?!!!

I would't have it any other way!! Except for maybe a nice German pilsner....

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Maybe nky could tell us a little bit about his training at the SD school he was at and why it was different from others experiences? If he did already in previous posts just kick me in the arse and tell me where... I'm too lazy to go back through the thread and re-read.	”

Thanks Bak..I think we might have known each other in a former life???

For one thing the cirriculum is huge but you are not expected to learn it all for belt advancement. Like i said i previous post i achieved a 3rd degree black belt level (and I'm not getting into the whole belt sash garbage). here is what was expected:

1. From white to black belt you had two types of katas to learn short and long with weapons kata's mixed in. I'm not going to go in and list everything in that period (you can go to their website and see it) but you had to pretty much know all of that and be able to apply it. This first part introduced you to the system and basically got you to a basic level of understanding or as my Wing chun Sifu says to develop a good sense of body karma. The kata's in the first part of the system consist of some tiger kata, Shaolin Bird kata, some Lohan fist, some crane. Internal training is introduced at this level in the form of dynamic tension and localized chi development. No higher meditation or anything is introduced.

2. From first to third you don't need to know all that is listed. Your sifu and M. Sin decide on what you are taught at that level. We are given a typical cirriculum for advancement:
*1st to 2nd
yang tai chi
bagua
4 tiger katas
4 spear katas
more advanced internal training
*2nd to 3rd
Hsing I roads
Hsing I 12 animals
Hsing I 2 man set
Tiger Crane duet
Tai chi fan
4 straight sword katas

As you advance you get more and more internal training including different breathing techniques and chi development. you go through a degree of application but here is where you start to learn so much that I found applications were at times glossed over. that is definetly where i feel SD lacks in at upper ranks. We sparred a lot...full contact. Tournaments are available but within the school only. You are not allowed to go to open tournaments, which i did find strange but a few of our guys did go to some open TKD tournaments and did very well. Not sure what the cirriculum for 3 to 4 or 4 to5 is but i know at 5 you are considered a Master and it takes about 20 years.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin I apologize for being dramatic but wouldn't you take offense to that even if you didn't live there anymore? And how can i state such things about a place i've never been just reading secondhand knowledge. Granted you can get information on just about anything but i'm placing an irrational light on things. That's how i feel right now with this thread. everyone speaking ill about a place they've never been.....	”

I have been there. Granted I was only 14 but like Wraith said...At what age do you decide is a good age to take someone's oppinion on something? What if I had been 15? Would that make a difference? Or 16? I was old enough that I can still remember some of the forms we learned. I remember the very first one we learned.
My oppinions are not besed on second hand knowledgs. It's based on my experience. In Hwang The's class we were not allowed to make contact with each other durring soparring. This was not just for me because I was only 14 but even the adults in the class could not make contact. We were told to stop 2 inches before we made contact. Thats just one of the things I didn't like.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

“	My oppinions are not besed on second hand knowledgs. It's based on my experience. In Hwang The's class we were not allowed to make contact with each other durring soparring. This was not just for me because I was only 14 but even the adults in the class could not make contact. We were told to stop 2 inches before we made contact. Thats just one of the things I didn't like	”

again Hwang The is no longer apart of the SD system. i am not privy as to why but there are reasons he is no longer there. That might be one of them. He has his own school now so if you want to discuss his cirriculum start another post....

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

nkyshaolin....I was chatting with a SD teacher on another chat forum (kungfumagazine) and I brought up the fact that SD students are not encouraged to compete at tournaments other than Sin The' tournaments. He told me that I was wrong. I'm glad to here that you confirmed what I trhought was right. He teaches internal styles at the school here in Lexington. He goes by the name of Baqualin. Know him? I think he teaches there on Saturday mornings.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

I have had little affiliation with the Lexington school beside classes taught by M. Leonard. M. Leonard is probably the true expert of SD and I have the utmost respect for him...but i can tell you he's not on any website chatting about anything. I have not been affiliated with SD for at least two years now so i have no idea who teaches what where. My school was in Northern Ky. (thus the nkyshaolin) and i can probably tell you all you want to know about them but i'm lost in Lexington. And unless they have changed their practices it was discouraged to go to outside tournaments or MMA venues. I know plenty of guys who did but it wasn't something they would broadcast over the internet.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

nkyshaolin....I was only mentioning Hwang The' because he was partners with Sin The' and he was the one teaching my class at SIN THE'S school. Yes Iknow Hwang The' is teaching at the YMCA and calls his art Central Shaolin Kung Fu but getting away from Hwang The' and back to thetopic at hand. My thought was if you have never been hit when sparring then how in the heck are you going to know how to react in a real fight. Most people would probably freeze up and get their arse kicked.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

[quote][My thought was if you have never been hit when sparring then how in the heck are you going to know how to react in a real fight. Most people would probably freeze up and get their arse kicked./QUOTE]

I agree with you 100% . Like I said before we sparred full contact in our school and in tournaments and in any other school i visited. Not sure why M. Hwang would not let you make contact so i won't comment on his reasoning.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

Its not that I hate or dislike shaolin do its just that I don't believe that Sin The' teaches pure chinese kung fu. I believe some of the material he teaches comes from other systems/styles. A lot of SD material looks like a mixture of karate, kempo, and maybe even some tang soo do or some type of korean art.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin I assuming the beer these two are clanging together is from a fine British pub correct?!!! I would't have it any other way!! Except for maybe a nice German pilsner....	”

Indeed

Or if you want, Budweiser, one of, if not thee only American beer I can get here, if you can believe that!!!

“	Or if you want, Budweiser, one of, if not thee only American beer I can get here, if you can believe that!!!	”

Oh that's painful! we need to send you some Sam Adams, or MGD or something to tide you over. There are some good English brew's though!

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Its not that I hate or dislike shaolin do its just that I don't believe that Sin The' teaches pure chinese kung fu. I believe some of the material he teaches comes from other systems/styles. A lot of SD material looks like a mixture of karate, kempo, and maybe even some tang soo do or some type of korean art.	”

I can't argue with that because i don't know that much about the other styles for comparison. That is a very valid opinion. I can say that the lower ranking knowledge is very much along the lines of kempo and karate but the higher ranking knowledge is very much Chinese kung fu. Again i never said anywhere in this post that I believed this to be a pure Chinese martial art, it's obviously not at the beginning levels. There was always a tent of Japanese, Korean flair to this art and (right or wrong) it was always explained to us that this was to protect the integrity of the art so it could be taught outside of China without fear of pursecution. Thus the belt system, Japanese gi's etc. There are other arts (can't name any off the top of my head) that also claim this type of secrecy in order to stave off persecution and continue to perserve the art. And in no way am I saying you have to love this art. Very few TCMA's like SD because of those things. Hell half the system left the SDA because they wanted to go to the sash system and M. Leonard (second in command) wanted to keep the more traditional Japanese belt system to "honor his master and the way he was taught". We stayed in the traditional gi's. The others went to the sashes but kept the ranking levels...just a matter of preference i guess. Anyway that was a huge political mess and big division in the school. And to be quite honest M. Sin had nothing to do with that. He seems to get pressured by some of his senior students way more than people think, which makes him look bad. He doesn't control the schools or what they charge, teaching methods or anything for that matter on the micro level. He simply states the knowledge he wants taught and gives the individual schools autonomy. That whole thing happened more of an internal struggle at the upper ranks.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

I've been pretty open-minded throughout this I feel (why wouldn't I feel that way.. it's my opinion) ha!

Anyway, the only bone of contingency that I would argue with "forms-wise" specifically would be what they're referring to as the "Tiger Crane Duet"..

This form in particular, is an example of how the knowledge, wherever it came from, is "tainted" to say the least... and I'm trying to be very kind.

“	This form in particular, is an example of how the knowledge, wherever it came from, is "tainted" to say the least... and I'm trying to be very kind.	”

Explain what you mean? Not being a jerk just curious....it's very similar to the Hung Gar version of the Tiger Crane. And just because it is similar doesn't mean it's stolen for cripes sake!! There are about 20 different tang lang schools and all of them have prey mantis kata's doesnt mean they all stole from each other. Same with Wing Chun, tai chi etc....

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

I'm trying to be open minded as well and would like to know more about SD and the SDA. So first question I have is this....Does Sin The' still teach? #2 question....You say that each school gets the right to determine monthly dues? #3 question.....If you opt to go with the more traditional uniform and sash can you still be part of SDA? If not can you still call it SD?

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage