Wanted: Info on Shaolin Do Karate

I can only speak about the material up to brown belt. Any thing past that I am not familiar with BUT both my teachers are. John Dufresne is like a 2nd degree black belt under GM Sin and Mark Burgher is like a 1st degree black belt under GM Sin. Beleieve me, a lot of our grandmaster's (GM John Wing Loc Ng) students has had a lot of dealings (confrontations) with Sin The's students. Big rivalry here in Lexington as you can imagine with his main school & oldest student Bill Leonard being here.

__________________
Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

dang, I take a week off and the whole thread goes to heck! This is why I try to stay out of internet SD threads, they tend to degenerate into a lot insults and childishness....not that this is all that rare in the martial arts community. I think we all love calling out ****ty martial artists, irregardless of our style.

JD, in answer to your questions
1. Sin The still does teach, but on a limited basis. Now he just gives seminars on advanced forms and runs upper level testing.
2. I don't know, but that's a REALLY big deal. Can't remember if I mentioned this, I wasn't part of Shaolin-do, I was part of the Chinese Shaolin Center, an almost identical set of schools started when the the Elder master Soards had a falling out with Elder master Leonard. One of the major reasons my school ended our association with Grandmaster The and the Soards was the announcement that all schools would have to pay the same dues and operate under the same schedule. This would have bankupted us as the rent on our building is ridiculous.
3. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

Ok, I don't have to work today, so I think I'm going to go compose a post on my Grandmaster The complaints. Hopefully if I put some time into I can avoid accidentally insulting people or making myself look Stoopid.

__________________
1. Research your own experience
2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

“	I'm trying to be open minded as well and would like to know more about SD and the SDA. So first question I have is this....Does Sin The' still teach? #2 question....You say that each school gets the right to determine monthly dues? #3 question.....If you opt to go with the more traditional uniform and sash can you still be part of SDA? If not can you still call it SD?	”

To my knowledge M. Sin only does seminars and may teach some students privately. And yes each school can charge whatever they want. The school i attended charged $40 a month. If you went to the traditional sash you were not allowed to be involved with the SDA. If you note on the website there are only schools listed that are affiliated with the SDA. M. Leonard runs the SDA, not M. Sin. That is his baby and that is why some of the other schools left because of the restrictions he placed on them that M.Sin did not. Not saying M. Leonard is a bad guy he just doesn't take any BS from some of the cronies that give this system a bad name. Those guys go under the name Chinese Shaolin Center and have seperated themselves from SD but still have allegence to M. Sin. Like I said he gets pushed around by those guys. Of that group I can only vouch for M. Gary Mullins. He is outstanding and is located in Johnson city TN.

“	Beleieve me, a lot of our grandmaster's (GM John Wing Loc Ng) students has had a lot of dealings (confrontations) with Sin The's students. Big rivalry here in Lexington as you can imagine with his main school & oldest student Bill Leonard being here.	”

Very possible. M. Leonard is a confrontational person at best. He doesn't put up with a lot of crap and probably comes off a little harsh. Definitely knows his stuff though.

__________________
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin Explain what you mean? Not being a jerk just curious....it's very similar to the Hung Gar version of the Tiger Crane. And just because it is similar doesn't mean it's stolen for cripes sake!! There are about 20 different tang lang schools and all of them have prey mantis kata's doesnt mean they all stole from each other. Same with Wing Chun, tai chi etc....	”

Actually the SD Tiger Crane is from Hung Ga just like 5 Animals is from my lineage of CLF. Trust me I know this because I've been learning 5 Animals for the past several months. Both are played incorrectly compared to how they are intended to be played. I've seen people from out west, from Ky, from Tn & Ga all play those two forms & they're not done properly from simple things like horses stances to energies to bridges, etc...

Are they doing it wrong?? Not according to SD so it needs to be looked at who taught them to SD & how SD learned them. The rest of the CMA world both agree on how Hung Ga's Tiger Crane should look & 5 Animals in my CLF lineage should look. If everybody else in the world is in agreement, is it feasable to think they're all wrong?

__________________
Terrorists aren't overseas. They're at the gas pump.
********
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Kung Fu-tzu (Confucius)

“	I don't know, but that's a REALLY big deal. Can't remember if I mentioned this, I wasn't part of Shaolin-do, I was part of the Chinese Shaolin Center, an almost identical set of schools started when the the Elder master Soards had a falling out with Elder master Leonard. One of the major reasons my school ended our association with Grandmaster The and the Soards was the announcement that all schools would have to pay the same dues and operate under the same schedule. This would have bankupted us as the rent on our building is ridiculous.	”

I take back what i said about the Soards. I don't have a high opinion of them...leave it at that.

__________________
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Originally Posted By: ace6foot8 2. I don't know, but that's a REALLY big deal. Can't remember if I mentioned this, I wasn't part of Shaolin-do, I was part of the Chinese Shaolin Center, an almost identical set of schools started when the the Elder master Soards had a falling out with Elder master Leonard. One of the major reasons my school ended our association with Grandmaster The and the Soards was the announcement that all schools would have to pay the same dues and operate under the same schedule. This would have bankupted us as the rent on our building is ridiculous.	”

Dude... CSC = SD ... SD = CSC

Sin The is still the Soards' teacher, still collects $$$ from them, still promotes them & their students...

School politics aside, it is SD.

__________________
Terrorists aren't overseas. They're at the gas pump.
********
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Kung Fu-tzu (Confucius)

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin Explain what you mean? Not being a jerk just curious....it's very similar to the Hung Gar version of the Tiger Crane. And just because it is similar doesn't mean it's stolen for cripes sake!!	”

Most people agree that Hung Gar's Tiger Crane form was created by Wong Fei Hung. This set has become a pillar form in the Wong Fei Hung Lineage of Hung Gar Kung-Fu.

So, if we take into consideration that the form was created in the late 1800's to early 1900's then at some point, either Sin The' or his teacher would have had to have picked the set up from somewhere and I don't believe they claim any lineage to Wong Fei Hung or the Hung Gar system of Kung-Fu... now, that's not to say that they couldn't have learned the form and started teaching it...... but there are a great deal of differences b/n Wong Fei Hung Lineages understanding of Tiger Crane and the SD understanding of Tiger Crane. Each lineage will have it's own "flavor" of a set, but the set stays the same as does the core principles behind the set... whoever initially learned this set, clearly had no idea what they were learning or the principles behind it... or if they did... they ignored it.

Ok, so here's my thoughts on the whole Shaolin-do debate. Quick note, because I trained at a similar school, and not an SD school, I'm going to refer to the system in question as Sin The's Karate. Hope that doesn't bug people.

Complaint #1: Questionable lineage.
Yes, it's weird, and yes, there's a grandmaster who looks like Chewbacca. I don't think this is limited to Sin The Karate. The Shoalin Temple pretty much just wants fame and money, so they're happy to have with any system that hails them as the best. Also, "questionable lineage" is pretty common in TCMA or any other history that relies on word of mouth to pass along the history. The details get lost and with retelling the story of how Grandmaster once dunked a basketball becomes the story of how Grandmaster once back-flipped over the rafters in a gym.

Complaint #2: Super-heroesque powers by grandmaster.
Again, this isn't really limited to Sin The karate. Just about every TCMA claims to have a grandmaster who once killed seven people, beat a water buffalo to death, punched a magician, etc.

Complaint #3: Quality of training.
There's not much I can say here. It seems to very A LOT from school to school and teacher to teacher. I will say that Sin The promoted a bunch of people who he probably shouldn't have and it's brought down the reputation of every school as a result. Promotion is due mainly to how many forms you know and how well you do them, not your overall skill as a martial artist.

Complaint #3: Hidden Fees
At my school there was
1. an initiation fee
2. monthly dues
3. testing fees
4. seminar fees
5. fees for weapons/ uniforms
Everyone I've ever met from a Sin The school has complained about these, and they drove me nuts. I will say that pretty much every school I looked at has these same fees, but our monthly dues were a hell of a lot lower then other schools, so it sort of balanced out. The main point of contention is that many of the seminars are required at certain levels, so just showing up to class religiously, isn't actually enough to advance.

Complaint #4: Tournaments
Because Sin The Karate practitioners don't go out and spar with total strangers, there's no good basis for comparison. This is sort of a broad complaint and I'm not quite sure how to address it. At my school, we weren't allowed to participate in any kind of tourney nor were we allowed to train in other styles (I think that's pretty common among the schools). I know this bugs the heck out of folks, but honestly, I think it came about for very practical reasons like insurance, not wanting to become a "sport", etc.

Complaint #5: It's all a bunch of McDojo crap!
OK, this is petty common and kind of broad. I think before you criticize any school as being a McDojo, you need to create some very specific criteria for what a McDojo is (then take a look at your own school to make sure it doesn't have some of the same symptoms). You have to understand that some of the things that YOU hate about Sin The's system might be what attracts some people to study it. I'm referring here to the diversity of material (some folks love it), the lack of sparring (some folds prefer the non-competitive atmosphere, or they just dislike competition in general)

Complaint #6: No ground game
It's a valid complaint, cuz there isn't any. What can I say, some people like the flash. A couple of friends have asked me to help them pick out a martial arts style, and have explicitly said they wouldn't study judo, aikido, or jiu-jutsu, because they don't want to grapple (stupid, I know, but it's an opinion)


Final note, Sin The is a good martial artist, and from my experience a pretty nice guy. Probably a little too nice. My big complaint about him is that he doesn't do enough to reign in his more senior students, leading to a lot of in-fighting and politics that don't belong in martial arts study

O.k, now I'm starting to ramble, please excuse me as I am bored and fighting with my girlfriend. Anyone got any follow up questions for the long rambly post?

__________________
1. Research your own experience
2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin I take back what i said about the Soards. I don't have a high opinion of them...leave it at that.	”

yeah, I got some beef with them. Mainly personal stuff, but I'm also pissed about what went down between them and my teacher.

__________________
1. Research your own experience
2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

Welcome Back Ace...

I don't completely agree with you on some of these:

RE: Questionable Lineage:
As I had stated earlier, most TCMA schools that I'm aware of have pretty well documented lineages that can be corroborated by others. I think for some lineages, tracing back prior to the early 1800's it might become a little hazy...

RE: Complaint #2 Super Heroesque Powers
I don't recall hearing things like that from solid styles that I've encountered.... I'll need examples.

RE: Complaint #3 Hidden Fees
Welcome to business... business is business. I don't take issue with Martial Arts Schools wanting to make money. The only issue I have with it is if the ethics and morals behind it are wrong, or you are not receiving the value for what you are paying for.

RE: Complaint #4 Tournaments
To be honest... an instructor telling a student that they can't go to an outside tournament is generally due to fear and insecurity by the instructor that their students will get their asses handed to them or realize that there is better material out there... or that the student will have a bad experience and want to quit martial arts all together... there is no liability on that instructor if one of their students goes and competes at someone else's tournament. If anyone can come up with any other valid reasons, I might change my thinking... till then....sorry, that's crap.

RE: Complaint #5 McDojoism
There are many schools that have aspects of being a "McDojo". Some more than others. I'd rather touch on the diversity of material instead of the blanket "McDojo". For me, when I see/hear diversity of material, a light goes off in my head and tells me that they might be "ok" at a bunch of things but not good at any one of them. Solid martial arts styles are styles for a reason, they contain a different set of principles and methods. Granted, there is a lot of crossover among these solid styles because the body is only capable of so much, but when you mix/match and change the principles, you're defeating the purpose of that style... and so far, from what I have seen, they've not improved on any style they resemble.

RE: Complaint #6 Ground Game
That shouldn't be a complaint, that's just an opinion/preference by others. There are many styles that don't concentrate or focus on the ground for a variety of reasons.

And lastly.... go make up with your girlfriend... fights are ok... but the making up is the best part

“	nkyshaolin wroteid you read what i wrote? Every school has dues (or fee's whatever you want to call it) for testing. You just said you had to pay for your sash....that's a fee.	”

“	Sammy girl wrote:That's not a bad fee then, but still a type of fee (whether the sifu makes money or not is moot).	”

I can see why you think of it as a testing fee and that's a legiitimate point of view. Where I am coming from is I think of it as more of an equipment fee than a testing fee, like how I have to buy certain weapons to learn at a certain sash level. I don't have to make a payment specifically for Sifu to test me. That's what I thought you all meant.

“	And i find it hard to believe that an upper level instructor would just show up out of the goodness of his heart to test you without getting some kind of compensation...not saying your lying (cause you might have found a school that is truly just in it for the art and not the money) but it's a little out there.	”

Not charging a testing fee (or much of one by your definition) is out there? Gads, that would be a stupid thing to lie about wouldn't it? And no, its not that my school isn't making money. They make plenty of money off of me in monthly dues. They are not that altruistic. It isn't an outragous amount, but it is on the upper end of what I have heard others pay. I would just say our school's fees are structured differently than the ones that rely on making money on people testing. Also, we have a full time Sifu at our school, the only traveling comes when we reach black sash and higher/ black fringe and higher. Our Tai-Sifu grades the black sash test and Grandmaster DFW comes down for the senior black sash and (Tai-Chi) black fringe tests.
I think that this system eliminates the controversy of someone paying for their sash rather than earning it. You pay your monthly dues, and you test when your instructor feels you are ready. I have seen some people move up quickly and others who have been at the same sash level the entire time I have been there. We don't have testing dates like I see other schools have.(I.E. the first Monday of the month is the day for tests.) It is much more individual than that. Occassionally a couple of people that have been formatting together for a certain test will test at the same time, but most often the tests are one person at a time.

NKY, honestly, all other issues aside, I really would like to know, do you REALLY believe that your Grandmaster has MASTERED over 600 forms? And that he did that in the manner of 1 form a day while going to school by the time he was 25? I am not saying it is or is not a good school, or that you should not go there. Nor am I saying he is or is not a great MA'ist, but I have done a little web searching and even a lot of people from your system who defend it strongly (like you do) back away from this claim.

-aaradia

__________________
I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

“	Complaint #1: Questionable lineage. Yes, it's weird, and yes, there's a grandmaster who looks like Chewbacca. I don't think this is limited to Sin The Karate. The Shoalin Temple pretty much just wants fame and money, so they're happy to have with any system that hails them as the best. Also, "questionable lineage" is pretty common in TCMA or any other history that relies on word of mouth to pass along the history. The details get lost and with retelling the story of how Grandmaster once dunked a basketball becomes the story of how Grandmaster once back-flipped over the rafters in a gym.	”

Agreed and i stated the same.

“	Complaint #2: Super-heroesque powers by grandmaster. Again, this isn't really limited to Sin The karate. Just about every TCMA claims to have a grandmaster who once killed seven people, beat a water buffalo to death, punched a magician, etc.	”

Yeah there are a few of those in SD but all schools have that stuff.

“	Complaint #3: Hidden Fees At my school there was 1. an initiation fee 2. monthly dues 3. testing fees 4. seminar fees 5. fees for weapons/ uniforms Everyone I've ever met from a Sin The school has complained about these, and they drove me nuts. I will say that pretty much every school I looked at has these same fees, but our monthly dues were a hell of a lot lower then other schools, so it sort of balanced out. The main point of contention is that many of the seminars are required at certain levels, so just showing up to class religiously, isn't actually enough to advance.	”

Again never was exposed to stuff like that but with the Soards in command I don't doubt it.

Complaints 4 and 6 I will agree with you.

“	I can see why you think of it as a testing fee and that's a legiitimate point of view. Where I am coming from is I think of it as more of an equipment fee than a testing fee, like how I have to buy certain weapons to learn at a certain sash level. I don't have to make a payment specifically for Sifu to test me. That's what I thought you all meant.	”

I have to admit i am wrong on this one. I asked around a few of my friends from other systems and they do not pay for their test in both schools. I guess i should ask my current Sifu if that is legit because i just paid for my last test in my new school....So I apologize for that. see I am learning and I can admit where i'm wrong

__________________
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Originally Posted By: bak_choy RE: Questionable Lineage: As I had stated earlier, most TCMA schools that I'm aware of have pretty well documented lineages that can be corroborated by others. I think for some lineages, tracing back prior to the early 1800's it might become a little hazy...	”

The debate about SD is seems to focus around. Where exactly did Sin The's teacher train. They claim everything came from the Temple in Fukien, but many of the forms resemble other systems. As for other TCMA schools, there always seems to be some kind of he said/she said somewhere in the lineage about who trained with such and such a master I don't actually care about that crap, I'm mainly concerned with who's going to teach me.

[/quote]
RE: Complaint #2 Super Heroesque Powers
I don't recall hearing things like that from solid styles that I've encountered.... I'll need examples.
[/quote]

The best example I can think of this is the many legends surrounds bruce lee. Also the one I like to talk about is Mas Oyama, who supposedly once killed a man and a bull. Not that I doubt he did this, but they never say why he killed that dude, and if he did beat a water buffalo to death did he compensate the farmer whose now out a bull?

[/quote]
RE: Complaint #3 Hidden Fees
Welcome to business... business is business. I don't take issue with Martial Arts Schools wanting to make money. The only issue I have with it is if the ethics and morals behind it are wrong, or you are not receiving the value for what you are paying for.
[/quote]

The problem here isn't that you're paying to learn. the problem is that they're arent' very straightforward about what you're paying for. I think people get pissed when the attend a MA school and then find out a month in, "oh yeah, there are these special classes, you've got to take them to advance". It just seems kinda sketchy.

[/quote]
RE: Complaint #4 Tournaments
To be honest... an instructor telling a student that they can't go to an outside tournament is generally due to fear and insecurity by the instructor that their students will get their asses handed to them or realize that there is better material out there...
[/quote]

couldn't agree more!

I pretty much agree with everything else too. I'm not sure why Shaolin-do gets so much crap thrown it's way, but seems to have pissed a lot of people off somethin' fierce!


[/quote]
And lastly.... go make up with your girlfriend... fights are ok... but the making up is the best part
[/quote]

Working on that, but honestly it just looks like she's just not that into me. Bummer.

__________________
1. Research your own experience
2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

I do want to add that people having issues with someone merely because they had the rare, but known syndrome of hypertrichosis is really lame. ( Not so much on DL, but research from this thread has shown people doing this.)

Cracks about chewbacca and questioning credibility merely because someone had a medical condition is really immature! It reflects more poorly on the person than on SD. What, his MA skill or lack of should be judged by that? It's ridiculous and bigoted.

I respect him for overcoming this ailment and what it did to his life and making something of himself. Not saying I do or do not believe all the parts of the story, I just don't know enough about that either way.

Nowadays, they can treat it, but back then it was not a treatable condition.

hypertrichosis information and details on treatments

What Is Hypertrichosis? Human Werewolf Syndrome Explained

Here is a link about people in history with this ailment, including the SD grandmaster.
The Human Marvels: Vindicating those once labeled as freaks.


-aaradia

__________________
I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

Aaradia, thank you for your respect and the links! I just want to reiterate that the stories told in SD are not indicative of the training done. When i was there we were told all kinds of stories and fables but it never effected how i trained or did i ever take it as gospel. All I know is what i was taught.

On a side note i did some research from my former instructor (master level)he said he got a chance to meet Ie Chang Ming and speak with him for some time. His knowledge was detailed in books and apparently when M. Sin was taught he was shown kata's in a days period of time (sometimes depending on length) and he wasn't consider a master of that kata in that same day. He studied with M. Ie for 8 hour a day periods, was given the kata and applications and then expected to work on those for some period of time. From what I gather he was taught to replicate the knowledge and master it later via what was written. Granted there were times we were given kata's in one day and we had to work on them for longer periods before we were considered knowledgable of the form. Our instructor would test us (non-paying ) on the kata and applications before we could move on. I am assuming that is how he learned. From the knowledge i was given (i didn't work out 8 hours a day) It isn't as far fetched as it sounds. Difficult absolutely but not completely out of the question. take it for what it's worth...

__________________
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.