Wanted: Info on Shaolin Do Karate

This thread has taken a turn for the better i think. Im glad people are discussing rather than insulting. I still feel the way i do but am happy people are getting along...

Well hello everyone, it's JadeDragon under a different user name. I got a new computer for christmas and i diddn't know how to change my work e-mail address to my home e-mail asddress on the dragon list so i just created a new user account. Anyways, I don't think that it's so much making fun of thier Great Grandmaster Hairy Man but rather it just adds to the gut feeling that people get about SD being bogus.

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin Aaradia, thank you for your respect and the links! I just want to reiterate that the stories told in SD are not indicative of the training done. When i was there we were told all kinds of stories and fables but it never effected how i trained or did i ever take it as gospel. All I know is what i was taught. On a side note i did some research from my former instructor (master level)he said he got a chance to meet Ie Chang Ming and speak with him for some time. His knowledge was detailed in books and apparently when M. Sin was taught he was shown kata's in a days period of time (sometimes depending on length) and he wasn't consider a master of that kata in that same day. He studied with M. Ie for 8 hour a day periods, was given the kata and applications and then expected to work on those for some period of time. From what I gather he was taught to replicate the knowledge and master it later via what was written. Granted there were times we were given kata's in one day and we had to work on them for longer periods before we were considered knowledgable of the form. Our instructor would test us (non-paying ) on the kata and applications before we could move on. I am assuming that is how he learned. From the knowledge i was given (i didn't work out 8 hours a day) It isn't as far fetched as it sounds. Difficult absolutely but not completely out of the question. take it for what it's worth...	”

Depending on the number of Kata's that where taught your absolutely right its not far fetched. And Practicing for 8 hours a day would make for some fast learning. I still question the number of Katas taught partially because I know just a few Katas can be both easy and hard to remember dependding. If the katas where like my old Kempo school where there are several series that are very similiar just with a few minor differences. That I could believe a person could learn a great deal of Katas very quickly when the Katas are basically the same save for a few minor adjustments here and there to teach a different technique or two. I just question the amount of Katas he claims to have learned. But if you say he is good then HE IS GOOD! or at least good for you. Me Choy Lie Fut is good, for me.

“	........And Practicing for 8 hours a day would make for some fast learning......	”

And that is a big problem with SD is that no normal person has 8 hours a day to learn that much. It takes a long time and a lot of work to become proficient. I came to a crossroad in my training that i had learned so much and that i had so little time to actually devote to the training that i had to either make a choice to stop learning new kata's and focus on application of the old ones or move on to another system. Since you really can't just stop learning more kata's in SD my choice was to move on to another system where i could put more focus on practical application and get away from the kata overkill. But again for the time i spent there it was a great experience and was right for me at that time in my training.

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“	Since you really can't just stop learning more kata's in SD	”

Why can't you just stop learning katas? If you're a black belt or heck any level for that matter... why can't you go to your teacher and say "I'd like to focus on my current efforts rather than learn new material for a while"?

“	Originally Posted By: bak_choy Why can't you just stop learning katas? If you're a black belt or heck any level for that matter... why can't you go to your teacher and say "I'd like to focus on my current efforts rather than learn new material for a while"?	”

I get the mental image of those VISA commercials where the guy stops to write a check and everything stops...and society pressures him into using plastic to keep the routine going. Except in this scenario, the Kung Fu Do world comes to a screeching halt for suggesting such blasphemy.

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He can't stop learning katas because this would put a screeching halt to money going into Grandmaster Sin The's pocket. No more testing fee's & no more special classes that GM Sin makes his students take when they get more advanced in order to go further in rank.

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Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

Though I see the same VISA comercial why dont we let the expert into this world tell us what would happen and if that has ever happened. That way we are badmouthing anyone and we are able to get a clearer view of this world. Though I stick to my earlier statements that there are too many outlandish claims that are made within this system for all we know this situation has happened. And you can still charge someone money to come to a school and work on old material. Most schools do that in some respect. We drill techniques for a reason and still have to pay for the class.

“	I get the mental image of those VISA commercials where the guy stops to write a check and everything stops...and society pressures him into using plastic to keep the routine going. Except in this scenario, the Kung Fu Do world comes to a screeching halt for suggesting such blasphemy.	”

Actually the VISA commercial was developed around me asking the same question....

There are a few guys who stop learning kata's but the whole premise of that system is to advance and it's not looked on well. It is up to your instructors descretion as to whether or not you advance as well. And i guess it's not that outlandish to ask to stop learning for a while but you are kind of expected to continue to improve. No body by any means is pressuring you to continue but it would be kind of odd if you chose not to learn. And with the amount of students we had testing at any particular time the money thing is not even an issue. Hell half the time M. Sin wouldn't even recoup the cost of traveling to our school for a test.

The belief (right or wrong) is that you need to continually push yourself and learn new to keep body and mind fresh. That is what the whole system is built on...variety and change. Now I was one that caught on to this stuff pretty quickly so learning the kata's was never a problem but again did i really "know" them inside and out?? It was more of a philosophical move for me and plus i wanted to learn more ground fighting which admittedly SD didn't have.

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Personally (and this is just my opinion) once you gain a "level/rank" you should relearn what you have learned sorta speak. First go over some new material of course but to go over and polish old material and material you might have just learned during the course of your last rank. I dont know if I am exprecing what I am thinking correctly. So let me know if yall got it or if Im just being confusing.

Just for clarification purposes...asking your teacher if you could lay off of learning new forms for a while does not mean that you stop learning or stop training.... you, the student, would still be expected to show up to class and participate as you had in the past or what have you... you would just stop learning new sets....

Learning goes way beyond picking up forms.

This makes me think of CLF.... CLF has tons of forms, but they are based on a set of principles that define CLF. If the form's movements deviate from the principles that bind CLF then the work being done through the form is counter-productive to learning the system.

Don't get me wrong, there are only so many ways to throw a punch and blah blah blah, but if you are trying to learn too many different ways to throw that punch, you'll never get good or even decent at any of them unless you back the truck up and focus on one of them for a good long period of time.

Forms are great, I love learning forms. I don't, however, like learning a form that is going to be detrimental to my overall training in the long run.

Also, I think it should be said that I'm not implying that someone should have "mastered" a form before moving on to the next one, provided the forms build upon skill sets and support one another, it's a good thing to keep progressing provided you know the sets well enough to not mix them up.

Who should you fear more... the person that has done 1,000 forms once or 1 form 1,000 times?... neither... fear the guy with the gun behind them

LOL, interesting point. Personally, I call "Mastering" a form as when a person can preform the form fore wards/backwards/blind-folded and explain the application of each of the techniques in the form. Now people may say that to learn something to that extent is ridiculous, but I said master. To learn the form well enough to move on or to just be a really good practitioner takes one thing (that will lead to mastery) that I have said a thousand times...Intent! Thats the defining principle.

“	Just for clarification purposes...asking your teacher if you could lay off of learning new forms for a while does not mean that you stop learning or stop training.... you, the student, would still be expected to show up to class and participate as you had in the past or what have you... you would just stop learning new sets....	”

on another note, as with most martial arts schools we are taught to respect our instructors decision with regards to our training. You never ask for knowledge and thus you should never ask not to be taught knowledge. Our instructor would only give us what he felt we were ready for to push us so to speak. So to say you didn't want to learn anything more could be taken as a sign of disrespect, basically saying 'i know you think i'm ready but your opinion doesn't matter and i'm staying right where i'm at for a while.' Could be contsrued at petty but it's a fine line in that regard. We never, ever, dictated what was to be taught to us and I would question the school that allows that.....

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I'm probably going to go on a rant that really has nothing to do with nkyshaolin so please take me with a grain of salt.

I sort of understand where you are coming from regarding respect and your instructor knowing best..................... however.........................

As a responsible adult (please remember the "responsible adult" part because not everyone is) you know yourself best, and as such, you know if you feel like you need to take some time to practice or gain a better understanding of something.

Alot can be said by an instructor watching a student do their form, but if you know 20-30 or even 40 forms and your instructor sees, let's even say 10 of them, your instructor could deduce what your skill level is and that you may be ready to move on or what have you... but what if you, as a responsible adult, decided that you wanted to be proficient at 20 of these said forms prior to moving on... it is your right to speak up and do so... if your instructor cannot respect your wishes then what kind of a person are they? It's only the instructor's ego for you to do as they wish that would make them upset. We all have egos but an instructor must try to set aside their ego for the betterment of the student. And honestly, if one of my students came to me and told me that, I'd applaud them for it. Rarely do you find the person that is willing to devote the blood, sweat and hard work required to work their sets and gain true understanding of them.

I like the fact that you mentioned questioning a school's practices.... It's something that should be done more often. I like electronics so when I want to buy a new electronic gadget, I do my research to find the best quality item that will fit within my budget. I also take into consideration brands... if I'm looking for a camera and it's a Canon, there's a peace of mind that goes with that brand... it's doesn't solidify my buying decision, but it does help. I know Canon has a reputation for producing good quality cameras, so then I check the models that fit my constraints and go from there... it doesn't rule out Fuji, Minolta, Sony or any of the others yet, but it helps me narrow down the field.

As consumers, more people should do the same when selecting martial arts instruction. Too often, someone walks into a school, sees a gi, an instructor displaying what a Rex Kwon Do instructor should and says, "Hey, I need that, where do I sign up?".

All these threads about SD should be more about exposing illegitimacies in the martial arts and educating the public.... somewhat of a consumer reports even.

On my last note... respect is earned and shouldn't be automatically given... don't get me wrong, it doesn't give someone the right to act like a pompous ass, but keep your eyes open and your mind aware... if things don't seem right... they probably aren't.

Ok... that wasn't my last note... now I'm going to attack the term "master" that I used earlier so flippantly. I personally have come to detest that word because it's thrown around so much these days. Master/mastery is such a broad term but is one that when referred to in the martial arts sense is one that is given with reverence to the person it is applied to.... But today, it's thrown around and has been butchered to death. To me, mastery is a virtually unobtainable goal... why?..... I think it's quite fine for others to feel like you have mastered something or even for them to refer to someone as master out of respect as a sign of reverence.... but it is not something that we personally should feel that we deserve... if we personally feel like we have mastered something... what more do we have to obtain? Are we saying that we're so good we consider ourselves "master"?... Please....too much ego.

I'm sure not everyone agrees with this thought and some people can't wait till the day they reach whatever degree black belt so they can become "master"... this is just my opinion.

“	Originally Posted By: bak_choy This makes me think of CLF.... CLF has tons of forms, but they are based on a set of principles that define CLF. If the form's movements deviate from the principles that bind CLF then the work being done through the form is counter-productive to learning the system.	”

Kinda true... but as you stated, CLF is built around a set of principles & to add, a core set of techniques.

Remember... Buk Sing only has (depending on who you ask) a handful (3 to 5 +/-) forms, but they have all the core basics of Hung Sing and Chan Family as well. Is it any different... maybe in stylistic & application delivery, but a sow choy (etc...) is still a sow choy in any CLF family.

SD doesn't do that. SD jumps from one critter to another with no core basics for any of the forms they teach. They have basics yes, but SD basics, not specific Hua Quan or Tiger Crane or this or that... where focus is found only there.

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I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Kung Fu-tzu (Confucius)