Wanted: Info on Shaolin Do Karate

I dont know if I totally agree with Bak_Choy on the matter of telling your instructor wheather or not you want to learn a new technique or not. I do however totlly disagree with the idea that respect is not given but solely earned. ALL living creatures should be given respect. At least to a certain degree. In the military I still have to respect and follow the orders of a pumpas ass if he is an NCO and I am not. I can hate the man but I have to respect the rank. Yes a certain level of respect and admiration should be earned. But that is not to say respect should be earned not given. I respected my NCOs here then I had one step up and really fight for me to get some things I despreatly needed (and when it didnt happen), bc of the fact I needed it, the First Sergeant of the Company made an alternative so that I could do what needed to be done. This earned him more respect and admiration than he had but he had had a level of respect before that. It just grew.


Now back to questioning your teacher. I have a problem with everything (its not you Bak_Choy its everywhere I look) everything seems to have a price tag and everybody seems to be coming from the point of view, "Im the consumer I am always right." Yes we are all adults (well most of us anyway) and so are our instructors. I told my instructor last night I didnt feeel I was ready to test. He expressed that sometime this month he felt I would be. Testing for a belt or sash or whatever ranking system used in "X" style is a new thing. So when we test or are taught a new technique its our responsibility to learn it not question wheather or not we are ready. You want to concentrate on a given area thats what practice on your own time is for. I know I have to put it several hours a day when I learn techniques. Of course practice the other techniques but you can concentrate then.

I understand that most times we have to pay to learn MAs at "X" school. Thats way you shop around at the beginning before you sign up or start investing large amounts of money. IMO once you have started down your path in "X" school you have stopped being a consumer and started being a student. If you were going to a college course (which most anyone can do at nearly any age) you cant tell your college instructor, "I think I want to concentrate on the year 1860" your going to get "Told tough" and that will be it. You take the course and you learn the material when its handed to you. Then you take the next course and learn that material when its handed to you. Its years before you really get to concentrate on what area you want to concentrate on. I have personally already gone to college for 3 years I am still about another 2 to 3 years out before I get my BS degree. But my goal of becomeing a physical therapist is a minimum of another 2 years off from that. Meaning I have spent 6 years in college before I can really concentrate. I think of MA's in the same light as I would a college. If your instructor is good, you are really only paying so he can provide equipment, a place to learn, insurence in case your injured and some sort of comp for those he has teaching around him. As of yet I have met an instructor who really made any money at teach (which I know you can). We are paying to learn a persons Life work, and I base that statement on the years of training it takes to get to a teaching position. In my school the lowest ranking teacher has been studying constantly (2-4 times a week) for the last 6 years. And it will probably be another 4 years or so before he is really ready to start a school of his own and that is an amazing stretch. Many instructors practice for 10 to 15 years before they open there own school (again good instructors not mc-do's). Your paying for the ability to put your blood and sweat into learning something someone else has as well. Shouldnt we give our instructors the same level of respect we would in our Jobs when being taught our trade (or local bussiness in our trade) or our college class where, yes we can ask questions, but are expected to learn at the pace set and must put in our own free time to do so.

Ok I think I have gone on about this long enough. I hope I didnt offened anyone (expescially you Bak_Choy since you got me on the consumer thing I dont want you to take any offense) and am sorry for the legnth of this thread I just wanted to make my point clear.

I think the whole consumer student thing is another thread but i agree with Green Horn on this. I was always taught to respect my instructor for the time and effort they have put in place learning what they've learned. I would never question an instructor unless I felt they were totally off base, then in most cases i would have probably just left the school. When i chose SD i had done significant research and when i joined i understood that 1.) you never ask for knowledge 2.) you may have questions for the instructor but you never question the instructor (big difference) 3.) Respect those around you in class. That is the basis for any traditional martial arts school. If you say it's not in your school and you have open learning where you dictate to the instructor what you're going to do then it's not a traditional school...period. No where in any school that i've ever been apart of would that be tolerated. hell even in the MMA schools i've attended you don't tell the instructor what you want to do. regardless i think that is a matter of personal philosophy. I personally would never belong to a school where that was allowed. Now it doesn't mean you have to agree with the knowledge taught. If that were the case you leave. but in my opinion, like Green Horn stated, you chose to be there now you'll chose to learn as the instructor teaches.

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“	SD doesn't do that. SD jumps from one critter to another with no core basics for any of the forms they teach. They have basics yes, but SD basics, not specific Hua Quan or Tiger Crane or this or that... where focus is found only there.	”

That's not entirely true. Go back and look at the cirriculum. There are specific areas of focus within each level of advancement. I spent two years learning the tiger systems, three years learning the Hsing I system, and a number of years spent in internal training (Tai Chi, baqua etc.). It's not like we'd learn a tiger kata, then tai chi then white crane then insert style here. You have to remember you don't learn everything that is on that list! There is certain criteria for advancement and that criteria is developed around certain systems.

Now is that time i spent significant time to develop a mastery level in each...no. But there is some method to thier learning.

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I thought Hsing I was an internal style?

“	Originally Posted By: Green_Horn I thought Hsing I was an internal style?	”

It is, but its also the most "external" of the "internal" systems. Its a great method, and one I personally incorporated into what I teach because it provides such a solid base.

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I'd love to learn Tai Chi (or Wudang Kung Fu), Bagua, and Hsing I. I can't rember the "style" that actually does concentrate on this school of thought. At least I think its a style might just be a term that applies to these three.

Sorry guys, I should have had more clarity in my statements.

There are certain levels of respect that you should give everyone. As humans, we should initially give people the benefit of the doubt.. unfortunately, it's the few that people that we can't trust that ruin for those that we can which leads most of us to be skeptics.

Regarding initial respect to a teacher, yes... I do agree you should have respect for a teacher when you begin class... I guess what I really should have been saying is blind faith. Even if you find out that the person teaching is not worthy of the respect for whatever reason... it still doesn't give you the right to "dis" respect them.... leaving is sufficient.

Regarding knowing when you are ready to start dictating the pace at which you learn... if you're have less than 3-5 years in an art, depending on a ton of factors that I won't even go into here.... then, no, you shouldn't have complete say-so as to what and when you learn new material.

The statements I make should be taken from a middle of the road perspective, not in the extremes.... No student has the right to disrespect an instructor after being there a weak because they don't understand something.... and no student should dictate what they can learn without having a full knowledge and understanding of their decision.

In the military.... and I have never been in the military so I cannot speak from experience or first-hand knowledge. You should respect your "higher ups"... that's civilian talk I guess because the assumption is that they have attained a position from a reputable source... IE, the US Government. (lol.... no politics please) But if someone that has command over you asks you to do something that is immoral or what have you.... do you not have the right to question that authority? Obviously, you can't just "leave the military" but you can take appropriate action?

I like your college example.... Undergraduate studies allow you to obtain the diversity through your General Ed studies and begin a course of focus. So if we liken that to martial arts... you learn how to punch, kick, self-defense, forms, etc in a variety of ways.... and as you progress you generally find a focus strength. Which allows you, now that you have an undergraduate degree to choose a field of endeavor or continue your studies with further focus that you choose.....

And lastly, Green_Horn, I know your instructor... if he feels you are ready to test, you probably are. Good luck btw

“	I thought Hsing I was an internal style?	”

True. i was refering mainly to Chen Tai Chi, Yang Tai chi and Bagua along with meditation. I guess the softer versions of internal study...good catch though!

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

“	Regarding initial respect to a teacher, yes... I do agree you should have respect for a teacher when you begin class... I guess what I really should have been saying is blind faith. Even if you find out that the person teaching is not worthy of the respect for whatever reason... it still doesn't give you the right to "dis" respect them.... leaving is sufficient.	”

Agreed 100%! No one should go off of blind faith for anything. I believe everyone can make a decision as to whether an art is right for them or not and stay or leave based on that (That's providing your mature and responsible enough to make that decision). I have left schools where I felt the training lacked or I didn't feel i was advancing like I would like, but I would have never went to the teacher and said "I want to learn this or that". It may be just me but i've always trained that way even in high school athletics, respect for those who are training or coaching you. I thrive in that type of set up, that's why SD worked for me for the time i was there (at least at the school i trained in).

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

I think we both get what the other is saying now Bak_Choy. At a certain level yes you should be able to focus in on what you want to concentrate on (or what your instructor feels your best at). Like many old martial artsist you start with the basics and when you get to the advanced stuff you need to figure out what road you have to go down. But that should be after the basic techniques and applications of the style are taught. So I'd say in a traditional style 5 years or more in. Again though in class we should do what the instructor has for us. OUt of class and one on one time with the instructors are better times to concentrate. You can concetrate on an area and not stop learning new forms and techniques.


And thank you for your vote of confidence. I just tend to be very critical of myself.

“	Originally Posted By: nkyshaolin True. i was refering mainly to Chen Tai Chi, Yang Tai chi and Bagua along with meditation. I guess the softer versions of internal study...good catch though!	”

nkyshaolin.....can you tell me a little bit about the Chen Tai Chi that you studied in SD? The Tai Chi form that I studied under one of Sin The's students was calling his form the Yang Short Form when it was really not. It was modified by someone and just called the Yang Short Form. I was just wondering if the Chen Tai Chi form was also modified. Does your Chen Tai Chi form contain sudden bursts of energy (fa jing) in certain spots of the form? Just curious. The Yang Short Form was modified by someone, can't remember by whom but I was given a web site to check out about the guy. You wouldn't know who it was that modified this form do you? If you look at the short form GM Sin teaches vs. the short form done by anyone else it is very different.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

If its any good. It would be interesting to see a few new tai chi forms around.

“	nkyshaolin.....can you tell me a little bit about the Chen Tai Chi that you studied in SD? The Tai Chi form that I studied under one of Sin The's students was calling his form the Yang Short Form when it was really not. It was modified by someone and just called the Yang Short Form. I was just wondering if the Chen Tai Chi form was also modified. Does your Chen Tai Chi form contain sudden bursts of energy (fa jing) in certain spots of the form? Just curious. The Yang Short Form was modified by someone, can't remember by whom but I was given a web site to check out about the guy. You wouldn't know who it was that modified this form do you? If you look at the short form GM Sin teaches vs. the short form done by anyone else it is very different.	”

The short form you refer to is what they call Tai chi 24. I think it is a modified version of a Yang form but I am not that familiar with it. I never got the opportunity to learn that one so i can't comment. I spent most of my time learning a Yang Tai Chi form they called Tai chi 64. It was very similar to the what you see on the internet with some minor modifications. The Chen Tai Chi form i learned as a seminar and I am ashamed to say i didn't spend as much time as i should have working that one. I learned it right before i left the school and from what i remember it is very dynamic and has a number of sections where the movements involve a lot of fa jing energy burst. That's about all i can comment on that. Now it was similar to what you see from say Master Chen Xiaowang but again there are differences and no where near the expertise that he exhibits (maybe a bad example seeing as he is the man when it comes to CT but i can't think of anyone else.) Again not saying that it is the exact version because like i said before there are instances in every school where the same kata's are performed very differently (site example of Siu lin Tao in Wing chun). Sorry I can't give you more information but again the Chen form i was pretty shaky on.....

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

The style "meteor fist" to which the original question refers is actually a very vaild system to which I have some information. As a once "closed" eye, er I mean door student of the GM The', I gained an understanding of his mannerisms and methods of speaking and understanding of the English language and his difficulty in translating Chinese to English. He does, you know speak 57 languages and it is easy to see how things can become misinterpreted and misconstrued. Indeed, the elusive "meteor" fist is actually the even more deadly "meatier" fist. The training involves extensive masturbation to the point of possible blindness and/or hairy palms. In fact, their great-grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin was the ultimate practitioner of the art. Hence the real reason his entire body was covered with hair, and not because of some rare genetic disorder. In one of the old paintings, their beloved Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming is referred to as "hand of the miraculous whip". Now you know they were not referring to his Iron Palm skills, simply the speed to which he could jack. Only time will tell what Ol' Sin Kwang's nickname will be with his Meatier hand skills, and the Elder Master in Lexington.....well, let's just say that one of his favorite things was to have "circle fights"....hmmm, wonder where that will go in the future?

See you in a few more years.

Old Man

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I Shall Always Remain A Student First

“	Originally Posted By: Old Man HTML Code: Indeed, the elusive "meteor" fist is actually the even more deadly "meatier" fist. The training involves extensive masturbation to the point of possible blindness and/or hairy palms. Old Man	”

...Of course you know, Old Man, that once GM The and Master Leonard get wind of this, they will come searching for you? You will be in your bed, snug like a bug in a rug, and they will teleport into your boo-dwa. Then, they will proceed to teach you a lesson by performing the afore mentioned "Meatier Fist" on YOU!! Uh...wait, that's just nasty, aint it? Oh, well...till then, take care, and sleep on your back!

-Wu to the Sung

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