Wanted: Info on Shaolin Do Karate

Ok let me see if i can shed a little light on this subject. i spent 15 years in the Shaolin Do system and i can honestly say that the time i spent there was some of the most enjoyable and intense training i've ever put myself through. Some of the finest individuals and martial artist i've ever come across came from the schools i studied in. The videos shown in this thread are not representative of some of the better students and probably about 90% of what you're told from the guy who spent a week with the dreaded SD guys is probably incorrect (just a hunch).

With that said most of the stuff said in this post (besides some of the Chewbaca bull crap that i've heard about 10 trillion times and it keeps getting funnier every time) are pretty fair criticism. one thing about the SD schools is that about 75% of them are garbage. Garbage teachers, garbage students, and garbage secondhand knowledge. Same thing can be said about any martial arts club of this size. This school (as with all martial arts schools) is a business and with all business you get your good ones and your turds. unfortunately SD has a lot of turds, doesn't mean that the system itself is garbage nor is it fair to lump all the schools in that same frame. M. Sin's story is questionable true, and some of the outlandish claims are pretty far fetched but the man truly knows the material he teaches and is dedicated to spreading the art he believes in , for monitary purposes or otherwise. Here is my take on the system:

Pros
1. Huge Cirriculum so you're always learning something new
2. Very good internal training if you advance enough in the system
3. Excellent workout programs (from the good schools) and great cardiovascular endurance gained from doing all the katas. Therefor your training never stagnates
4. A few outstanding masters of the system who truly know their martial arts and are excellent fighters who put the knowledge to practical use.

Cons
1. Questionable lineage and outlandish stories
2. Too many katas
3. A bunch of garbage schools who run their mouth about a system they are novice at best.
4. money making machine and some questionable practices


Sound like any other school you've heard of? i'll be quite honest i left SD last year for personal reasons and to train in another direction. i never regret one minute i spent there. So go ahead with your with Cousin It takes and chi balls of fire takes i've heard it all. i'm sure if you all spent the same amount of time you have here researching your school you find the same skeletons.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

nky... I have to give you some props man. You spoke from the heart it appears.

I feel that your post half belongs in a shaolin do thread and half belongs in a "demise of TCMA thread".

I personally don't think anything is wrong with making a dollar from the martial arts. It doesn't make you a bad person.... remember... it's not money is the root of all evil, but the "LOVE" of money that is the root... making money given the correct moral fortitude is a good thing provided you are giving back what you are receiving via services offered.

Anyway... like I said, I've touched hands with some decent SD students/instructors. My major issues lie in the outlandish claims that you mentioned.

Honestly, the real reason it's a bother is that it perpetuates this mindset that there is this mysticism to be had if you study ___ (insert style here).

I'll just throw in this additional comment to see what everyone's thoughts are.... If a person grew up and they were only exposed to a Dodge Dart and that was the only vehicle they knew... when they turned 16 and they got a brand spankin'-new Dodge Dart they would be damned proud of what they had.... and rightfully so.... after all, in their realm of thought, it's the cream of the crop.... does it get you from point A to point B.... probably... hopefully.....

“	Originally Posted By: bak_choy I'll just throw in this additional comment to see what everyone's thoughts are.... If a person grew up and they were only exposed to a Dodge Dart and that was the only vehicle they knew... when they turned 16 and they got a brand spankin'-new Dodge Dart they would be damned proud of what they had.... and rightfully so.... after all, in their realm of thought, it's the cream of the crop.... does it get you from point A to point B.... probably... hopefully.....	”

Hey now, the "slant-six" was one of the more durable engines i can recall...

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"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel

You know, I have not bashed this tradition nor any other EVER. To each their own. I make it a point to not criticize other Martial Artists. Furthermore, I know very little about this tradition. I think I ran across their web site once and have heard it discussed here. I would not tell anyone to join nor not join, but to research it and see if it fits what they want.

People can belong to traditions that have no forms, a few forms or many, again, whatever makes them happy. Some people criticize my tradition (CLF) for having a lot of forms. I like it that way, anyone who doesn't can join a tradition with less. It is great that there are so many different MA's out there that anyone can find what they want. My point was not knocking that either.

However, I WILL call out a statement that is so completely ridiculously ludicrous as mastering 600 to 900 forms by the age of 25, and especially if they claim to master, not just learn but MASTER a form a day, while going to school part of the day, over and over and over again to get to said 600+ forms. I am only an intermediate level student, but I have learned enough about MA to know with utter certainty that this is just not possible. And if anyone makes such a obvious BS statement, then they deserve to have that statement challenged.
The issue is credibility. Pure and simple. That is why this claim matters! I can't believe you don't understand that that is the issue.

-aaradia

“	Originally Posted By: bak_choy I may have woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning so it might be better to ignore my rant. Seriously, what's it matter how many forms anyone lays claim to? Whether it's 5 forms full of crap or 900 forms full of crap.... it's still crap. And I'm so sick of freakin' titles I'm just ready to puke... On a redeeming note for SD. I have touched hands with some of their people and they have not been poor martial artists. As a whole, the leadership is seriously misguided and for that, they will have to answer for what they've done someday.	”

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

You also have what's been proven as 100% true.

Sin The took forms from other systems, without knowing them properly and renamed them and claimed they came from his system and that he had mastered it. He had trained with various martial artists where he did this, he stole from them and is a 100% Grade A thief, liar and con.

ANYONE who does that is crap, scum and a horrible person and martial artist, if you buy into that, you are a Grade A Ignorant Fool.

Sin The maybe an excellent martial artist, and he may very well know his stuff. But that doesnt change the fact he is trying to sell a bill of goods under false pretenses. I mean If I were to try and sell you a liquid medicine that releives headaches and migranes and it work. Does it matter that its liquid heroine? Just because no one is dying or its not a drug doesnt mean its anyless wrong. Now the SD guys that are good the masters that now there stuff, Sin The himself all may benifit and be magnificent because of it but it doesnt change the facts.

Personally I tend to find it very hard to get into a MA club because I do take a long time to find out everything I can about the style, the people and the reputation and claims made by the people in power of said style. That way I know I'm taking liquid asprine and not liquid heroine.

“	You also have what's been proven as 100% true. Sin The took forms from other systems, without knowing them properly and renamed them and claimed they came from his system and that he had mastered it. He had trained with various martial artists where he did this, he stole from them and is a 100% Grade A thief, liar and con. ANYONE who does that is crap, scum and a horrible person and martial artist, if you buy into that, you are a Grade A Ignorant Fool.	”

Wow that's a pretty powerful statement. One i'm sure was made with first hand knowledge and experience of the system as well as research as to which styles and kata's were stolen. And seeing as there is no schools in the UK to my knowledge i'm sure you spent time in the states and with M. Sin himself to make those statements? Or you probably got second hand knowledge from some disgruntled jackass who spent a couple of months in the one of many SD McDojo's and not in one of our better schools.

And correct me if i'm wrong but this is a Shaolin school and Shaolin schools owe there history and knowledge set to the Shaolin temple which by it's nature was one the assimilated knowledge from other systems and called it, its own. So let's call them theives too...right? I've seen some of the best Choy la fut practicioners in the world and some of the worst yet i don't take the one worst that i've seen and say all CLF schools are crap. I've seen Siu Lin Tao performed about 14 different ways in various Wing Chun schools, yet i don't call Yip Man a thief who made up his own style.

Again I'm not defending M. Sin or preaching the virtues of SD i'm just saying i think this system is getting shed in a bad light on this thread. I personally have spent time with M. Sin and he is one of the most genuine andkindest men i've ever met and a fine martial artist. do i agree with everything one of his methods or stories told, absolutely not. Do i feel the system he teaches has real world application and is a valid martial art, absolutely.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

Well mate, was born and spent 30 years in the States.

2.) I train Shaolin, have been to Shaolin and speak with the Shaolin monks, Sin The and Shaolin Do never came from there, have never had anything to do with them and don't associate or relate in any way with them.

3.) Masters of many systems/styles have stated what I said about him, not only in person, but in magazine interviews and on forums.

I'm glad you defend him so much while not defending him so much, but the truth is that he runs a serious McDojo, that style has the reputation it does from it's scams, poor martial arts instruction and practitioners, it's BS, fantasy stories and lies. There may be some good martial artists in it, every McDojo does, that doesn't change the fact that's been proven about it on numerous forums by those who used to train in it's upper levels and have associations/experience with it.

Bobblehead: What was I thinkin'... dissin' the Dodge Dart

NKY: I'm interested in some of your comments about seeing some of the best practitioners in this art and that art... have you had the opportunity to train with others that are in other quality martial arts? Not a beginner or intermediate student, but someone who truly knows the "system" of their art? I'm not trying to bash, just curious... this is in relation to my Dodge Dart analogy.

Something else to think about: Martial arts do not define who we are, we define the martial art we practice... so if I am of bad character, bad morals, etc. my art will reflect that. It may not be on the surface, but at some point, my character will permeate through to the art I train.

“	2.) I train Shaolin, have been to Shaolin and speak with the Shaolin monks, Sin The and Shaolin Do never came from there, have never had anything to do with them and don't associate or relate in any way with them.	”

Yeah Shaolin itself has no questionable practices whatsoever...refer to this previous post...I think you had some valuable comments here.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...tml#post254345

“	I'm interested in some of your comments about seeing some of the best practitioners in this art and that art... have you had the opportunity to train with others that are in other quality martial arts? Not a beginner or intermediate student, but someone who truly knows the "system" of their art? I'm not trying to bash, just curious... this is in relation to my Dodge Dart analogy.	”

Bak i was just making a general statement. I have trained in Wing chun with M. Benny Meng and M. Garrett Gee for a short period of time but by no means am i considering myself an expert judge. I apologize for anything misleading i was just trying to prove a point.

I know i'm coming across defensive and I am defending by not defending M. Sin so I guess i should clarify my stance. From my PERSONAL training experience with M. Sin he is a fine individual and martial artist. Do i agree with all of his practices..no not always. Do i support some of the McDojos that they admittedly have...absolutely not. Do I find the lineage ,as well as most other TCMA lineages, suspect...yes. Did it effect my training and martial skills...not to my knowledge.

Again I left Shaolin Do for personal reasons and to change my training direction. SD has no ground game whatsoever (from my experience only)so that was a big point of contention for me. Although in our school we went over applications the vast array of knowledge expected to learn kind of left you out with regards to full understanding of the system...so that was also difficult. I left to go to Wing chun and MMA...my choice. Trust me i've heard this crap for years and no one has ever had first hand training experience in one of the many good schools and come these forums and bashed SD. SD's problem is it's puts itself out there as the most comprehensive MA out there and makes some pretty admittedly outlandish claims and gets crucified for it. The only ones who suffer are the truly good schools who practice their knowledge with honor and respect.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

It's all good nky.

I may be completely way off base, but I find it interesting that you chose Wing Chun in conjunction with mma. Do you feel that one of the reasons you chose Wing Chun is because you had interacted with people that had a good knowledge of the system?

Not all TCMA lineages are suspect.... admittedly once you get to the 1700's and early 1800's it's sometimes difficult to trace and separating facts from legends also becomes a problem. If you chose Wing Chun, I would think that it's varied lineages are fairly well documented from the 1800's to today?

Honestly I went to Wing Chun out of curiosity and a fondness for the system Bruce Lee originally trained in . I loved the fact that it was compact and direct. I also loved the trapping ranges which we didn't always spend much time in SD. The system i'm studying is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun which is pretty outstanding. I am directly learning under my sifu however he is a disciple of M. Meng and M. Meng has given a number of seminars and one on one lessons as well as M.Gee. The MMA stuff was originally a suppliment to get some ground game but i'm a competition junky and I look to try to get in a few local fights if possible. I am training with a friend in that but we have an outstanding Militech camp around here i may join soon.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

nkyshaolin.....everything that Mei Hua says about Shaolin Do IS TRUE. And me and Mei rarely agree on anything, right Mei?.....LOL. "grandmaster" Sin teaches Shaolin Do Karate not Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Do & "GM" Sin are not associated with the Shaolin temple. Yes there is a monument @ the Shaolin temple in his honor but he had to pay a huge amount of money to have that done. Anyone that donates enough money can have a monument erected in thier honor there. I can have a monument erected there if I donate some money. The more money you donate the bigger the monument is. That is fact, not just me making it up. In the picture of "GM" The standing in front of this monument in his honor what you can not see is the dozens of other monuments to people who have donated. In Sin The's web site that shows this picture he makes it seem like that this was done in his honor because the monk love him. They don't love him, they love the $10,000 he donated to them (that $10,000 is fact as well). The forms are stolen from other systems and are not done right. Everything Mei said is fact. I studied there back in the mid 80's and got up to test for my brown belt. The only reason that I didn't pass the test was because I later found out it was due to my age. I was 13 or 14 at the time. But getting back on track and not to try to be disrespectful but it sounds like you have been brainwashed by "GM" Sin and his cult like ways. I argue fact not oppinion and these are the facts on SD and it's so called Grandmaster.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

Oh well sooorrrry! You reached brown belt level so you know all there is to know about SD. I'll take my 15 years experience with the system and just bow right out of the conversation.

Look I'm not brainwashed by anybody. did you read any of my post...i'm no longer in the system. I just think its irresponsible of you guys to come on here with a bunch of second hand and limited knowledge and start bashing any system. I'd say the same thing if it were MMA or Wing Chun or whatever. You're misrepresenting a martial art based on your experience when you were 13 years old?!! come on man that's ridiculous.

Look you are from Lexington, there is a fine SD school in Northern Kentucky. if you really want to find out some of the good of SD go there and speak with any of the instructors or watch a class or better yet spew some of your crap to them and see how they respond. then come back to this post with a rational and educated opinion of the school. I gaurantee you won't have the same opinion. The only other person on this thread had two years experience with one of the Soards SD schools out in the western part of the united states. Those two are the jerkoffs that bought the monument for M. Sin, something he didn't ask for in the first place. Their spin off McDojos are the ones that give the other schools a bad name.

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I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

nkyshaolin, yeah I was young when I studied at The Sin The' Sport Center off Richmond Rd. but not to young to remember the BS that he told us. By the way, both my teachers (John Dufresne & Mark Burgher) have a black belt under Sin The'. They think it's pretty much BS as well. I still remember the forms I learned there so I must of not been to young to realize it was BS. I can still do the first form they teach called Se mon tal li (sp?). I prob. massacered the spelling of that form but my point is I remember most of the stuff. Not because I think it is good stuff but because I was dedicated to learning and I practiced this BS everyday at home thinking I was learning something worth while until I got up to green belt then I started to see the ineffectiveness of his self defense techniques and the BS about stopping 2 inches from your opponent when sparring. Come on man.....If you don't make contact (even light contact) when sparring how in the heck are you going react in a real fight. At green belt level (intermediate level) you should be making contact when sparring. Even if it is just light cantact. It may not be that way now but back then thats how GM Sin ran his sparring class. On top of all this SD is a money making scheme. You have to buy this patch and that patch for this belt and that belt. Then you have to take special classes which cost additional money on top of the already monthly dues you have to pay each month. I think the special classes that are required for advancement are Tai Chi & Ba Qua. If it is required for belt advancement then that should be included in your monthly dues NOT make you pay additionally or tell you up front when you sign that contract that there will be additional fee's when you reach advanced level. Then you have outrageous testing fee's like a couple hundred dollars when you get to brown and black belt. Then you are pretty much pressured into joining SDA (shaolin do association) otherwise you are neglected. His methods remind me of a Tae Kwon Do school. I'll give GM Sin credit for one thing though, he knows how to rake in the money.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage