The Demise of Traditional Martial Arts

I don't go by stats. I train the best I can.

Now, if I were 15-20 years younger I would train like hell for fighting because that's where my mind & body were at. But now I train for art & health and that changes the equation. Less emphasis on kicking butt & taking names, more emphasis on details & structure.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

This is such a good point. It's so hard as a teacher to walk this line and allow in our schools for both kind of students.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

But you know, you need both kinds of students in TMA. The ones who only want to be geared to fighting will benefit from those who only want to improve their health & well-being, and vice versa.

TMA puts the "person" into the training equation. This has its problems, sure -- it would be easier to just strip training down to stats, acronyms, charts & etc. than to also be responsible for another human's lifelong well-being. But that's what is being taught, part and parcel with learning to fight is learning to live, not just survive.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Army vs Good Health. One is about the illusion of good health the other is about being in good health. both has its positives and negatives. Both will greatly improve the person. Just the end goal is different.

For some reason that just brought to mind a scene in "We Were Soldiers" -- early on, the first sergeant replying to a gung-ho soldier's "Good day" with "the he11 it is" (or something like that). And later in the film, after that soldier staggers back into the line dragging the only other survivor in his platoon, the first sergeant looks at him and says "Now this, is a good day." A brutal lesson in perspective.

Don't know if it really applies to this thread -- unless you perceive of TCMA in a similar light.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

In truth both can be used for preparation for war. Both have a survival first thought process. Maybe Im just rambling though.

I get so disheartened at times by what I read and experience in the ma world. I think that if you sum up all of what is said here you need to just train your art and do it truthfully. Shore up those areas that you see as a problem with applying the principles of your art. It is hard to train hard because most people don't want to train to hard. Why? Because it hurts.

Don't give up on your art. Find people who want to train and train hard with them. Dialogue with them and train honestly. I can't tell you how many people I see doing something that they know could get them hurt in a real situation.

The important thing is to do your art. Be faithful to it, and it will be faithful to you. Honestly train and you will benefit. I know it sounds cliche but its the truth.

I agree -- great post. In the end, that's all it comes down to, just train.

When I first started kung fu I bought a bunch of books and videos, trying to find the key to becoming an expert, and fast. When the key was right in my hand all along.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I will probably be returning to Chico California sometime this year and most likely will start teaching martial arts. The "solution" that I have come up with is I am going to divide the program right down the middle. When prospective student comes in I simply ask them "what specifically do you want". Then based on their answer they will be in program A or program B.

Program A: Traditional Chinese martial arts
Crane Boxing
Xingyi
Pakua
Taiji
traditional weapons

or Program B: Combat/Self Defense
Western boxing
Stand up grappling
Basic BJJ
Mental Discipline

I will keep them as two completely different programs because they are trying to do two completely different things. Trying to mix the two is like mixing the fine art of sculpture with the practical art of auto body repair. In a broad sense both have a common core, molding materials into a certain shape, but in a teaching sense they have little in common and their goals are far apart.

Take care,
Brian the Future Teacher

Another great post by Brian.
Hey, Brian, aren't you a published author? Don't they have a banner or something around here for that?

__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: brianlkennedy Trying to mix the two is like mixing the fine art of sculpture with the practical art of auto body repair. In a broad sense both have a common core, molding materials into a certain shape, but in a teaching sense they have little in common and their goals are far apart.	”

What litmus test will you be using to determine the program for each?

I fear I already know the answer.

Hi Cam,
Yeah, I am published. I will ask around for one of the banners, thanks for the tip, it will give my posts some "class".

Sifu Kennedy,
You have an auspicious family name by the way. I don’t know if the characters will appear in this post or not, but I will try: our family name Kennedy, in Chinese is: 甘乃迪. It is pronounced somewhat like it sounds in english; Gan Ni De. Unlike a lot of western names, Kennedy has a set translation because of President Kennedy.

Turning from names to litmus tests; you asked what litmus test will I be using to determine the program for each?
That is easy, the criteria is-----my personal judgment. I do not say that for shock value or to boast but my system is mine. It is called Guang Ming Li(光明里) which can be translated as Luminosity Village. I chose that name because it is the name of the village I have lived in here in Taiwan over the past decade when I put together my system. It is a traditional sign of respect to name systems for the place in which they were developed. I follow that tradition.

But the system is designed with my personal judgment as the criteria for what is included and how the included items are performed. I am not a lineage holder in any traditional system so I do not view myself as being under any moral obligation to faithfully mimic and pass on what I was shown by my teacher.

Now let me be quick to add, I am not making these judgment calls in a vacuum. On the traditional side the criteria I am using is what I have seen in Republican era training manuals and to a lesser extent what I have seen both here in Taiwan and back in California. On the combat side my criteria is what I see in UFC and Pride and what I was taught by Andy Wang and what I have picked up from both Randy Couture and BJ Penns two books.

If what you feared was that I was going to say MMA is the ultimate litmus test for combat---you are right, that is my position. What else am I going to do? Guess? Rely on what some nice old Chinese man in a Inside Kung Fu article says? Use some half assed traditional technique from a two man form. No, the Octagon is it. The only other source I have would be to base my approach on what I had seen in police reports over the years (I worked as a prosecutor in California) but what cop reports say is basically confirmed in the Octagon. By the way I am not "anti-traditional" but I am a rationalist and I do want to do the best I can for both myself and my students.


Take care,
Brian Kennedy

And yet another great post by Brian!!

__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

I think Cam is sporting a "broner".

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: brianlkennedy I will keep them as two completely different programs because they are trying to do two completely different things. Trying to mix the two is like mixing the fine art of sculpture with the practical art of auto body repair. In a broad sense both have a common core, molding materials into a certain shape, but in a teaching sense they have little in common and their goals are far apart.	”

I would disagree, for I believe that combining both MMA & TMA would be an ideal situation if you want the full training experience of training in the martial arts.

__________________
"What purpose do we all serve? Do you know?"