Religion: Fact Or Fiction?

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua What is it that makes your religion/belief so worthwhile and believable, and what evidence do you have to verify that your religion is actually a real religion and not just another story. Is a religion still a real religion if many of it's beliefs and practices were taken from other religions but yet still claimed as being its own, or is it just a mockery?	”

This is a bit of an oxymoron. Religions are adaptive in their methods of propagation. Christian missionaries adopted pagan festivals, Buddhism frames some of it's questions relative to a Hindu mindset, Zen Buddhism has the flavour of Taoism and so on. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

You ask if a religion is a "real" religion. All religions are real religions, if people sincerely believe the content of that religion. Yet if we question the contents of those religions, we're not in a position to prove or disprove the reality of those claims in a form that the faithful will accept.

This is the "reality" of religion that you have to work with. Hence my feeling that the poll itself doesn't achieve what I suspect it was intended to.
Much like Chi Sao, if you make your intent that obvious, the person will immediately deflect the attack. Which, ironically, is why many religious followers are more subtle in their approach to indoctrination.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

Let me add another dimension to this discussion.

In reality there are only 2 religions.

First religion is what I understand to be alien / ufo worship. Nowadays there is plenty of evidence to conclude that pagan civilizations worshipped alien visitors from outer space. Pagan egyptians, hindus, aztecs were all obsessed with astronomy and their Gods came from the skies in flaming charriots (the phenomenon we understand today as UFOs). These pagan civilizations or alien worshippers considered "Snake" to their sacred symbol. Hinduism still holds snake as sacred. Egyptian pharoashs wore cobra crowns and aztecs also regarded is as a sacred creature. These alien worshippers could call their "Gods" to perform feats for them such as cutting and moving large stones (its argued that thats how pyramids were built).

Second religion is what exists today in the form of Islam and arguably Christianity and Judaism. These religions refer to alien visitors as SATAN! If you read the description of satan in Quran you will have no doubt that what is being described is UFO phenomenon. That is the reason why "snake" (symbol of worship in pagan cultures) is equivilant to devil in these religions. When the city of Mecca was conquered by Prophet Muhammad PBUH, he headed straight to the kaaba (which was built by Abraham) and destroyed the idols that were kept in there by pagans. Little known fact is that these idols placed by pagan arabs were statues of astronauts visitors. Cyril Glasse describes them very clearly in his encyclopedia of islam.

I just thought I should add this for its an interesting thing to mention here.

For more discussion on this topic you should read "UFOs in the Quran."

www.dukandar.com/ufosquran.html

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung This is a bit of an oxymoron. Religions are adaptive in their methods of propagation. Christian missionaries adopted pagan festivals, Buddhism frames some of it's questions relative to a Hindu mindset, Zen Buddhism has the flavour of Taoism and so on. Nothing exists in a vacuum.	”

Yes, but in Buddhism and Taoism some credit is given to the other belief in which this or that one borrows from the other, they do not make the claim that this was our discovery and thus it is ours.

“	You ask if a religion is a "real" religion. All religions are real religions, if people sincerely believe the content of that religion. Yet if we question the contents of those religions, we're not in a position to prove or disprove the reality of those claims in a form that the faithful will accept.	”

Real as in 100% factually proven, not just by belief, but by sound deductive methods for testing if something actually, truly exists.

If I say I'm 40 feet tall and the best looking person that has ever existed since the beginning of time, it is real to me but is not actually real since I have not given any proof in support of my claims.
The first is false, but the second is real...

So while people may claim that something is real, humans are very susceptible to delusion and giving false truths, as well as being easily deceived, if you can not give some proof of the reality of your religion, and some actuall proof at that, not just stories from a book or this person was this or that so my religion is real, then it is not a real religion, it is just a faith based on invalid reasoning.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

wow way of kyokushinkai just as i had you down as one thing , you became something else..........i like the snake thing..........i think youll find the eyptians worshipped loads of different animals, as do the hindus (holy cow)......the eyptians were particularly fond of crocodiles, they even built a city in their honour, crocodopolis.............

as for that decartes nonesense allknowingone i do call exception to it........"i think therefore i THINK i am"...........

i met an entity, it was bigger than could be sensed or even imagined, it felt as if it was timeless, older then i could conceive yet present in the now and stretching way into the future, it mere presceince filled me full of awe, terrifying (when i paniced) and totally ecstatic, when i relaxed, it communicated through the ground and upthrough my feet, i underdtood it but it didnt use word...........this event was as reall as a brick wall..........i have repeated the experiment and it worked.............what was that?........GOD (epiphany)?......a god?...........hallucination?.............hypnosis ?......none of these?............it is my beleif that religions are based on similar experiences........

i also once attanded a state of total enlightenment whilst on magic mushrooms once whilst walking up a country lane, a bright light appeared ahead and had an amazing effect on my nueral network, i really beleived i had found the meaning to everything and it was great, as approached the light my euporia started to radiate outwards then i realised what the light was, lamp post, and pop it all went away................

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut wow way of kyokushinkai just as i had you down as one thing , you became something else..........i like the snake thing..........i think youll find the eyptians worshipped loads of different animals, as do the hindus (holy cow)......the eyptians were particularly fond of crocodiles, they even built a city in their honour, crocodopolis.............	”

You are absolutely correct. In fact crocodile worship exists in Indian subcontinent even today. There is a pond in Karachi, which hosts over 100 "sacred crocodiles." It has been here since the time of Hindus.

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Yes, but in Buddhism and Taoism some credit is given to the other belief in which this or that one borrows from the other, they do not make the claim that this was our discovery and thus it is ours..	”

Well, the people of the book appear to acknowledge their shared heritage, though not perhaps their interpretations. No one discusses their faith in terms of "discovery".

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Real as in 100% factually proven, not just by belief, but by sound deductive methods for testing if something actually, truly exists...	”

In the same manner that someone who cannot prove the existence of their chosen deity, neither can we disprove the existence of that entity, for the same reasons. There is no such thing as conclusive proof regarding deities, only philosophical discussion.

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua if you can not give some proof of the reality of your religion, and some actuall proof at that, not just stories from a book or this person was this or that so my religion is real, then it is not a real religion...	”

I'm interested in what "real" religions you're comparing these false ones to. You're debating the veracity of the claims religions make. Let's take it as given that nobody is going to find suitable proof of their deity's existence (and therefore the host organisation's legitimacy). This doesn't stop a religious practice existing, regardless of philosophical inconsistency. Whether or not Communism is a flawed theory doesn't prevent Communism from existing.

Whether or not we allow people supporting these unprovable ideas to influence our own, or those of our governing bodies is another matter entirely. I deplore the return of religion as a political force in the modern era.

I recently saw an interview with a Sunni moslem in Iraq talking about the constitution. The fellow wanted Iraq to become a completely Islamic state, because then women would have to wear the burqua, in accordance with their customs. Personally, I would be more concerned about wider issues of economy, justice and security than whether or not I had the backing of the government to enforce a dress code on mine and my neighbours wife!!!

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua it is just a faith based on invalid reasoning.	”

Faith isn't based on reasoning, that's why it's called faith.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung In the same manner that someone who cannot prove the existence of their chosen deity, neither can we disprove the existence of that entity, for the same reasons.	”

It is not for me or us to prove they/he/it doesn't exist, it's for them to prove they/he/it does exist, and there has still not been solid evidence that a god does indeed exist.

I

“	'm interested in what "real" religions you're comparing these false ones to.	”

Any and all, they are all false.
Any organised religion is a scam.

There is a difference between spirituality and religion, in spirituality while you may have faith in an other being or greater power, that is not the sole purpose of your "faith", you seek to enlighten yourself, to improve yourself and rid all the bad from your being, you seek to improve the good and to help all, not just yourself and only those acceptable to you.
(I could go on for a few more pages, but that's the minute-condensed-basic version)

Most religions while they may claim such do not follow their claims, it is time to abolish organised religion and spread the benefits of spirituality.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

“	Originally Posted By: Way of Kyokushinkai Let me add another dimension to this discussion. In reality there are only 2 religions. First religion is what I understand to be alien / ufo worship. Nowadays there is plenty of evidence to conclude that pagan civilizations worshipped alien visitors from outer space. Pagan egyptians, hindus, aztecs were all obsessed with astronomy and their Gods came from the skies in flaming charriots (the phenomenon we understand today as UFOs). These pagan civilizations or alien worshippers considered "Snake" to their sacred symbol. Hinduism still holds snake as sacred. Egyptian pharoashs wore cobra crowns and aztecs also regarded is as a sacred creature. These alien worshippers could call their "Gods" to perform feats for them such as cutting and moving large stones (its argued that thats how pyramids were built). Second religion is what exists today in the form of Islam and arguably Christianity and Judaism. These religions refer to alien visitors as SATAN! If you read the description of satan in Quran you will have no doubt that what is being described is UFO phenomenon. That is the reason why "snake" (symbol of worship in pagan cultures) is equivilant to devil in these religions. When the city of Mecca was conquered by Prophet Muhammad PBUH, he headed straight to the kaaba (which was built by Abraham) and destroyed the idols that were kept in there by pagans. Little known fact is that these idols placed by pagan arabs were statues of astronauts visitors. Cyril Glasse describes them very clearly in his encyclopedia of islam. I just thought I should add this for its an interesting thing to mention here. For more discussion on this topic you should read "UFOs in the Quran." www.dukandar.com/ufosquran.html	”

I utterly completely disagree with your post, which really boils down to "My way is the one true right way, all others are satanists/ space aliens."

You take a bit of evidence of aliens being noticed in ancient cultures and WAY oversimplify the beliefs of other religions to justify your beliefs.

I respect you have found a religion/ spirituality that works for you, too bad you can't respect others a finding religion/ spirituality that works for them.

This kind of intolerance makes me sad and sometimes angry.

-aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

[quote=aaradia]I utterly completely disagree with your post, which really boils down to "My way is the one true right way, all others are satanists/ space aliens." [quote]

facetiousness or ignorance ?

“	You take a bit of evidence of aliens being noticed in ancient cultures and WAY oversimplify the beliefs of other religions to justify your beliefs.	”

Nonetheless, they are beliefs. your below statement and above statement are contradicting.

“	I respect you have found a religion/ spirituality that works for you, too bad you can't respect others a finding religion/ spirituality that works for them.	”

“	This kind of intolerance makes me sad and sometimes angry. -aaradia	”

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"-when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practiced and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing.”

I really don't see that as contradicting. Here is a little clarification.

I am merely stating that as a modern day pagan, who studies ancient paganism, I feel he oversimplified and more importantly puts down all other beliefs as Satanism. If that is what he wants to believe, whatever, but it makes me sad that he can't respect that other people have different beliefs. All other religions are not evil.

I also believe this intolerance works against the message of the Deities and Prophets of most religions.

I happen to strongly disagree with much of the doctrine of many of the current monotheistic religions. But I don't run around telling people my personal beliefs about these other doctrines out of my respect for those who find it to be a good and helpful blessing in their life. When I am not afforded that same respect back, it saddens me.

When this intolerance is used as justification to take away my civil rights, it makes me angry.

He has a different spiritual path and I respect that, but based on that paragraph he wrote, Would he respect that I tell him my religion is not Satanic? That I believe Satan is the evil deity in Christianity/ Judaism/ Islam and is not a Pagan deity?

I guess I am saying he can believe I am satanic if he wants, but I wish it was respected that I do NOT see my religion this way.

Does that make more sense? Let me know if it does not and I will try and explain better.

My main intolerance is against intolerance! HAHAHA
-aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

O.K. , I understand. I agree. One way to look at it- Satanist in my dictionary = Different beliefs. Seeing as I don't belive in satan, this is what I derive rather than taking offence to an ignorant statement.

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"-when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practiced and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing.”

I'm sorry to barge into this thread so late, but I noticed a comment earlier that was very similar to something I've heard before when having conversations of this kind, and it's something I find a bit troublesome:

“	I don't need to prove he/they don't exist, you need to prove they do, which you still can't in any possibility do	”

Must we really have "solid, unquestionable proof" before we believe something?

StrawDog

“	Originally Posted By: StrawDog I'm sorry to barge into this thread so late, but I noticed a comment earlier that was very similar to something I've heard before when having conversations of this kind, and it's something I find a bit troublesome: Must we really have "solid, unquestionable proof" before we believe something? StrawDog	”

IMO, it's all perspective. Some wish to have solid proof. Others do not.

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"-when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practiced and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing.”

Perhaps the deliverance of the abilities of faith is being played out in the debris fields of the gulf coast.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

“	Originally Posted By: aqira Perhaps the deliverance of the abilities of faith is being played out in the debris fields of the gulf coast.	”

I have to agree with that.

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"-when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practiced and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing.”