Religion: Fact Or Fiction?

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut "There has never been true hard facts that creation and god are real"..........you and the whole of creation can be said to be proof of existance.......duhhhh........as concrete as you like................i dont think the existance of a god is any more bizzare than the idea of a big bang..............in fact the guy who came up with the theory of the big bang was a christain wasnt he?????????............mei hui forgive me. but i am finding your definitions of god rather childish.....as if your stuck in some fantasy of your own about what people believe god to be..........	”

Creation in the sense that god created the world and all things, duh!
You can read right? What have I said repeatedly? If you don't understand something, ask, it does no good to make silly comments and insults, reflects rather poorly on you.

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“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut "There has never been true hard facts that creation and god are real"............just to emphasis that i think that this sentence is one of the funniest things ive read on the DL since FF said "As I always say, it was demonstrating that these theories take massive leaps in logic and are built on one or two mythical stories.".............if there is no hard evidence of creation go headbut a wall....................if thats not hard enough then maybe try jumping in front of a train.............no evidence of creation pah!............there is a great jewish story about a philosphy student arguing with a rabbi.............the student says anything can prooved even that the two of them dont exist, at which point the rabbi punches him in the nose and asks "what hurts?"..............	”

What you've said proves that we are real, it gives not a single ounce of evidence that god exists or that he created the world and all things in it.
Thanks for continuing to prove my point that Christians/Catholics have no real proof that god does exist or is responsable for creationism, but when said discussions come up revert to foolish claims and insults/attacks against people not of their faith.

Not all mind you, some are actually intelligent individuals who can hold an intelligent discussion while providing support and facts for their belief and arguements, Fighting Fat to name one.

Others have said this to you, try proper sentence structure, it is not easy to understand what you are trying to say with a paragraph long sentence.

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“	Originally Posted By: openmind What if God IS all things ? I know for a fact we have the ability to affect our reality in a significant way through thought. I mentioned in a different thread about collective conscience. When someone prays for a miracle, is it all things that hear it subconsciencly ? Do all people and things have the ability to affect one persons reality in a tremendous way ? ie: perform a miracle ? Maybe we don't/can't see God because it too obvious where/what he is ?	”

That's a lovely idea and a really intelligent thought. I have also often pondered whether God is the sum of us all- our collective conciousness, ultimately concerned with unification, the fear of being alone, what is of benefit to all humanity. This could be why we felt drawn to him- even this discussion we are drawn to debate the idea, something of it is with us in how we formulate and hypothesise...

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Faith itself, compelled by the Holy Spirit, possesses an inner dynamism that necessitates deeper understanding. ~Thomas Weinandy O.F.M.

hehe think i struck a cord..........a note on sentences...."There has never been true hard facts that creation and god are real".......shouldnt that read creationism??????.................. ............try responing to the points made rather than insinuating personnal attacks.............creation is creationists proof of the existance of a creator..........what proof have you to the contrary..........and dont give me that lepracorn nonsense, you are saying their is no creator, i have offered my proof to the contrary, you have offered no proof only child like aristotlean logical argument (figments of the intellect)...........my apolgies if the style in which i choose to present my arguments doesnt sit well with you.................

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

Just noting you have no section in your poll for polythiests. Either no God or a God. There are some out there who believe in multiple Dieties. Oh, and Goddesses as well!
-aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

Like Mormons? Or Hindus?

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Faith itself, compelled by the Holy Spirit, possesses an inner dynamism that necessitates deeper understanding. ~Thomas Weinandy O.F.M.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingFat Like Mormons? Or Hindus?	”

Hawaiians.......

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"-when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practiced and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing.”

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut hehe think i struck a cord..........a note on sentences...."There has never been true hard facts that creation and god are real".......shouldnt that read creationism??????.................. ............try responing to the points made rather than insinuating personnal attacks.............creation is creationists proof of the existance of a creator..........what proof have you to the contrary..........and dont give me that lepracorn nonsense, you are saying their is no creator, i have offered my proof to the contrary, you have offered no proof only child like aristotlean logical argument (figments of the intellect)...........my apolgies if the style in which i choose to present my arguments doesnt sit well with you.................	”

No, you didn't strike a chord, I was being serious. It's hard to understand what you are trying to say with a paragraph long sentence, break it up a little like most people do and your point will be clearer.

I don't rule out creationism, I rule out people who say that's the way it is with absolutely no proof, facts that it really is so, and more continous dogma. You still have not cited one verifiable fact that creationism really is responsable for us and the world. So please, if you can't offer any hard facts for creationism, find something else to debate about.

I also don't deny that there is a god, I deny that he is the supreme god, I deny that he is the only god, Christianity and Catholicism came about thousands of years after people had already been on this planet, if he existed since the beginning, how come noone knew about him? There were countless other religions and gods/goddesses here before him, if he could make himself known to his beleivers, how come he couldn't do the same to all the other people before his believers?

“	Originally Posted By: aaradia Just noting you have no section in your poll for polythiests. Either no God or a God. There are some out there who believe in multiple Dieties. Oh, and Goddesses as well!	”

aaradia, sorry, I didn't include alot of options for all the beliefs, but the thread is still open to all beliefs, you are more than welcome to express your beliefs and opinions, we'd all like to hear your views.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

"if he existed since the beginning, how come noone knew about him? ".........not true......the greeks had a god with supreme authority...........as did the incas and the mya........as do voudoun and santeria.........as did the norse peoples........this was not a christian invention, just because they call their lesser gods by names such as saint or angel doent mean that christianity is that differnet from the religions that preceeded it............it is widely beleived that christainity got its (supposed) mono thiestic doctrine from judaism, which is some thousands of years older than christianity................it is also argued by some that judaism got its idea of one god beats them all from assyrian and egyptian influences.............i'll say it one more time as you seem to be ignoring it CREATION IS THE PROOF FOR CREATIONISM............as somebody here once said "for those that believe no proof is nessecary, for those who dont, no proof is good enough".......me i like to mess around with my beliefs.............ooooo again sorry about the presentaion......not my forte............

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

Sorry for the off-topic blurb...
Wingnut: Please....please, for the love of whatever it is that you believe in...please, work on formatting your text.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut CREATION IS THE PROOF FOR CREATIONISM	”

Sounds like a fairly redundant statement...

You cannot quore creation as proof for *anything*; you have no idea how any of it happened, and you never will. If you claim otherwise, then we are lead right back to the reason that the argument is moot--your devotion to a blind faith vs our devotion to scientific proof.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut "if he existed since the beginning, how come noone knew about him? ".........not true......the greeks had a god with supreme authority...........as did the incas and the mya........as do voudoun and santeria.........as did the norse peoples........this was not a christian invention, just because they call their lesser gods by names such as saint or angel doent mean that christianity is that differnet from the religions that preceeded it............it is widely beleived that christainity got its (supposed) mono thiestic doctrine from judaism, which is some thousands of years older than christianity................it is also argued by some that judaism got its idea of one god beats them all from assyrian and egyptian influences.............i'll say it one more time as you seem to be ignoring it CREATION IS THE PROOF FOR CREATIONISM............as somebody here once said "for those that believe no proof is nessecary, for those who dont, no proof is good enough".......me i like to mess around with my beliefs.............ooooo again sorry about the presentaion......not my forte............	”

Fair enough.
We can agree to disagree, but that is the great thing about free will

And yes, many different religions and beliefs do have a supreme god, but that supreme god is not the Catholic/Christian god, and do not some Catholics/Christians claim that there god has been the supreme god since the very begginning of time? That was my point, how come these other religions didn't follow Christianity/Catholicism right from the start? How come The Christian/Catholic god couldn't provide proof of his existance before his religion came into existance, perhaps he might not be the only, and supreme god that is claimed, but just another god in the chain of deities.

And again, fair enough, I can except that.

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What religions have a supreme God that is not the same as the Christian God?

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Faith itself, compelled by the Holy Spirit, possesses an inner dynamism that necessitates deeper understanding. ~Thomas Weinandy O.F.M.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingFat What religions have a supreme God that is not the same as the Christian God?	”

Druidic, You also have the Greek god Zeus, In Chinese belief systems you have the Jade Emperor, and many, many more.

So while they may all be supreme gods, they are not the god of Christianity.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Also modern Witchcraft has the Supreme Diety as either a Goddess, or as inclusive of all Genders.

My Craft tradition has such a Female Diety (which in public circles is referred to as the Star Goddess) In my tradition, Dieties seem to have a gender, but really are inclusive of other genders within themselves too.

It is my personal belief that most Dieties wear gender to their followers like we choose what clothes to wear. They really are not limited like we are, but may be more in personality like what we consider as Masculine or Feminine.


Certainly not the same as the Christian Supreme Deity.

-aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert