The Road to Application

I wanted to stick this in a more "official" forum ( this is the off-topic lounge after all ) but that would mean either an internal or external focused forum and this concerns all students of the martial arts.

Influenced by a string of other threads, here's a thought. Blocking drills, chi sao, forms, etc, why do we do them? The likely hood of any of these set drills being applicable in a real encounter are slim at best, so what good are they? It's because contained in all of them are true principles that are universal. A Si Fu can't possibly present even a fraction of every possible permutation of how a technique can be used. This is where the student comes in. They have to learn to extract principles from drills and then apply them where they can. So how do we do it? How do you work to learn application of the principles taught in class? What methods have you found that makes you a smarter artist, not just a more knowledgeable one?

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Always fear the man with nothing to lose
- J

“	Originally Posted By: Jaron So how do we do it? How do you work to learn application of the principles taught in class? What methods have you found that makes you a smarter artist, not just a more knowledgeable one?	”

While I cant get too detailed about the actual methods we go through, what I can say is this:
Everything we do has a very specific goal of interacting (NOT reacting) with the best possible action. The process begins with new students simply moving back and forth, learning how to sense the intent of their opponent, and moves on to a whole set of predefined chi sao exercises that deal with a string of "best possible" actions based on a certain attack before we actually arrive to an "open-ended" chi sao; a simple example, if you blocked a mid-height punch and closed up the attacker, its more difficult to then attack anywhere at or below the level of your hand at that point, so the natural place to attack is to the throat, face, chest, etc. By the time we start working on improv, we have a pretty good idea of angles and where we should be attacking. Its one of the tools that we use that I find invaluable.

In the end, working something like this over and over and over causes you to begin to wire these techniques into memory. Many sifus Ive studied under claim that working on this with as much feeling of touch as possible, and as little sight sense as possible allows your brain to wire this into gray matter located farther down your brain near the spinal cord which allows a much faster reaction time. Regardless, there is no doubt that reacting on touch is much faster than trying to use your vision to process your environment; its a much simpler process staking place. Thats why working from a bridge/learning to bridge is so important, and perhaps, why boxers dont want you to make a bridge, and why its so important to them to ALWAYS cover the face.

Naturally, this isnt the only technique used to heighten ability/learn to apply application, but it is, IMO, an extremely important tool.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

Hmmm.....
Forms are just a higher form of shadow boxing, it is up to the practitioner to imagine an opponent while doing them, to reflect upon the true use of the technique done in a form, and how it would be done realistically to properly learn their use. When we teach a form, we break it down in sections and describe the practical usages of the techniques, if the student should need it, we also do practical drills from sections of the form, where someone will use the techniques from the form while being attacked by others to see how it really works, and thus get a better chance of understanding the practicallity and use of forms.
The same with drills, they're designed to teach timing, awareness, movement, power, etc. and so again we do partner drills anywhere from 1 to 6 people against one, so that we can learn how it might actually be used in a real situation and not just in the kwoon.


As for myself, I reflect upon everthing I learn, break it down into practical, realistic useage, adapt it to my ways of movement, discuss it with my brothers where we all offer our insight into how it would actually be used, and then follow said discussion with practical drills, and so by doing it this way, I gain a better, thorough understanding of each technique I learn, how it would actually be used on the street rather than a safe environment.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

“	Originally Posted By: PlumDragon While I cant get too detailed about the actual methods we go through, what I can say is this:	”

Too detailed? For me? I've been told that if people ask me for the time I tell them how to build a clock.

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Forms are just a higher form of shadow boxing, it is up to the practitioner to imagine an opponent while doing them, to reflect upon the true use of the technique done in a form, and how it would be done realistically to properly learn their use.	”

That's what I've done since I started, it's the way I retain info. Some others in my class can learn the "choreography" first then attach uses to it later. Me, I go straight to application then work on form as I go.

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Always fear the man with nothing to lose
- J

“	Originally Posted By: Jaron Too detailed? For me? I've been told that if people ask me for the time I tell them how to build a clock.	”

Just trying to keep it non-specific as to not divulge too specifically how we perform our exercise. Its the general concept that is most important and the focusing on the exact movements would only hinder an individuals advancement without detailed instruction.

“	Originally Posted By: Jaron That's what I've done since I started, it's the way I retain info. Some others in my class can learn the "choreography" first then attach uses to it later. Me, I go straight to application then work on form as I go.	”

When we learn the form, we have already been through most of the application of the movements. I find that we will learn/apply combinations or a series of techniques over time, and it usually turns out that those movements make up various parts of the form, or a new chi sau exercise.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Forms are just a higher form of shadow boxing, it is up to the practitioner to imagine an opponent while doing them, to reflect upon the true use of the technique done in a form, and how it would be done realistically to properly learn their use.	”

That's interesting. I believe that Forms are a remedial version of Shadow Boxing, and that Shadow Boxing is the best way to practice applications in the absence of a partner. Unlike a Form, Shadow Boxing allows the body to move more naturally, and the mind to think more naturally.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon That's interesting. I believe that Forms are a remedial version of Shadow Boxing, and that Shadow Boxing is the best way to practice applications in the absence of a partner. Unlike a Form, Shadow Boxing allows the body to move more naturally, and the mind to think more naturally.	”

Aye, perhaps so. But in a form, you get more movement as you would in an actual fight than you would by just standard shadow boxing, you use more of your body to develop power, than standard Western shadow boxing, you have to use your mind to picture who and how you fight them, not just go through the technique, imagine them attacking you as well, and by doing so you adapt your movements and power to match.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

A form is forever bound by unchanging manuevers. The practitioner can alter many things about a form, but the overall pattern will be the same. Shadow Boxing (or Natural Movement) allows the practitioner to move freely in a space and "play pretend" with any and all techniques he wants.

To me, a form is a reference material. Its a way to access many of a style's techniques, power generation methods, and tactics. Interpretting and internalizing these attributes are the realm of sparring and Natural Movement.

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon To me, a form is a reference material. Its a way to access many of a style's techniques, power generation methods, and tactics. Interpretting and internalizing these attributes are the realm of sparring and Natural Movement.	”

Agreed. More than reference material though -- it's a way of locking those techniques into memory. It is similiar to the way that ancient storytellers shaped their tales in rhyme and music, so that they and their successors would remember how the story goes.

Breaking the techniques out -- whether through shadow boxing or any other exercise outside the form -- can bring the concepts to life.

“	Originally Posted By: Jaron Too detailed? For me? I've been told that if people ask me for the time I tell them how to build a clock.	”

LOL! That's an interesting point though, in context of teaching applications. A single technique may have several applications, but is it wise to teach every one of those applications to a student right away?

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl LOL! That's an interesting point though, in context of teaching applications. A single technique may have several applications, but is it wise to teach every one of those applications to a student right away?	”

I think you may have mistaken my intent there. Just meant he can share all the detail he wants on he's training "devices" not on specific uses. I think it's actually a hindrance to try and "teach too much." By trying to elaborate on a lot of possibilities, a student might begin to close off his mind by memorizing each motion in its subtle difference rather than learning one motion and how to apply it to any situation. Going too far can sometimes limit creativity because the person will start to lock his mind in the same fashion and lose the ability to look at things a different way.

__________________
Always fear the man with nothing to lose
- J

I think I did ... my mind was more on "teaching too much" more than on sharing details online.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon A form is forever bound by unchanging manuevers. The practitioner can alter many things about a form, but the overall pattern will be the same. Shadow Boxing (or Natural Movement) allows the practitioner to move freely in a space and "play pretend" with any and all techniques he wants. To me, a form is a reference material. Its a way to access many of a style's techniques, power generation methods, and tactics. Interpretting and internalizing these attributes are the realm of sparring and Natural Movement.	”

Personally, I think shadow boxing is about as useless as performing a form when studying on the "Road to Application".

Ultimately, we do not go through forms ad nauseum so that we will be able to apply dead moves in combat. Forms build muscle memory so that when we do execute the movement it is "closer" to ideal. We practice forms so that we can engrain some common strings of techniques, which is no different than a boxer learning to deal with a jab-cross. We practice forms to concentrate of power generation, breathing, and other factors, and in this way, often times the form is performed very slowly. Its not meant to be usd in combat like it is performed; it is a tool that emphasizes other things.

Similarly, shadow boxing is a boxer throwing successions of punches and it never helped the slightest bit in sparring. Although I did find that shadow boxing didnt help any with form, didnt help any with power development.

Honestly, I dont feel that talking about formwork OR shadow boxing is really an inportant part of the "Road to Application". Application work is very different from both of these in my mind, and is rooted more on engraining in your head how to interact in the best way and actually performing those actions 1 million bajillion times, starting slowly and controlled and building up to full intensity on a very slow timescale.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl I think I did ... my mind was more on "teaching too much" more than on sharing details online.	”

I was actually kind of concered about both of those things when I wrote what I did.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

LOL @ you forms people!

Thank God Jujitsu doesn't bother with all that....you learn applications and apply them directly....nothing to interpret....nice and simple!!

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If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

If Judo had form exercises that were done before doing throws, my back might not be so messed up today. As for the ground work in jujitsu, there is a very different dynamic that takes place which makes form work not nearly as effective on the ground, although certain types of form work can help with relaxation on the ground, which is very important.

Either way, like I said above, formwork is far from the most effective means to do application work; it has different goals. Now chi sao...has helped my ground game enormously.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."