Does your school use belts?

No belts at either of my schools. Only a couple levels of competency.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl *Warning: CMA sash performance may be affected when used beyond its intended purpose. Side effects include fever, rash, indigestion, sleeplessness, hallucinations, occasional choking, halitosis, muscle weakness, bear attacks, PMS, and/or mild headache. Always use the sash responsibly.	”

I've had all of this from using my sash!, just last night I had to fight off a bear while dealing with a horrible case of halitosis, and PMS!

I thought the world was going crazy!!

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Students and Instructors have grades but only the Instructors have belts. Originally the students had coloured uniforms and the Instructors had black but now everyone has the same uniform. The grading system and I'm guessing the belts were only introduced when the style came to Europe in the 1930's.

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The buck stops here.

Seahorse Arts

In my Sifu's school everyone wears a green sash (just part of the uniform) except the instructors who wear a black sash.

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

I think it would be difficult for a school in America to not have a belt system, (sashes are the same thing as a belt, just called something else, but it is still tied around the waist, and is usually a color to discern a particular level)

In China students were usually chosen by the instructor and it was an honor to study under them. The students knew they were undertaking a lifetime of rigorous training and that their skills would come if they stayed true to their training.
In America the goals of attaining a new level help push a student to the next level. Also they love the idea of progress. Everyone in America wants to attain skill now. The mindset is so different from Asia that the belt levels help to teach the patience, perseverance and practice needed to reach the skills the arts have to develop.
Food for thought.
SLT

my sifudoesn't deliniate between levels. I guess thats partof the reason i like my school. its not like alot of places, and my sofu doesnt seem to care about pushing students to the next level. We get there eventually, depending on how hard we work.

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"When the battle is over, tighten your chin strap." ~Old Japanese Saying
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Hung Gar/Win Chung student

That's one of the drawbacks to a colored belt system: using the system to push students up as a way to make more money. Black belt clubs, or a "belt test" after every new form or every month or so (for additional fees of course).

Not to say a non-belt system couldn't con its students ("uh yeah, it's not time for you to learn that technique yet because your uh, chi isn't strong enough yet. But if you take this extra seminar...").

It's true about the benefits of colored belts, or even just levels, seeing them as a goal to attain and a way to compare skill with fellow students. As long as the student is being allowed/encouraged to attain that skill, and not pushed up the ladder to be a cash cow, the method is fine.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

We have three colors, white, brown and black. But because we are closed, we don't pay fees to attain ranking. Just blood, sweat and tears baby.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: Sun Lu Tang The mindset is so different from Asia that the belt levels help to teach the patience, perseverance and practice needed to reach the skills the arts have to develop. Food for thought. SLT	”

You might want to cook that thought a little more. If the belt system is necessary because "The mindset is so different from Asia that the belt levels help to teach the patience, perseverance and practice needed to reach the skills the arts have to develop." how do you reconcile that with the fact that the belt system came from "Asia"?



And on a slightly off-topic point, statements like "The mindset is so different from Asia" really make my skin crawl.

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare And on a slightly off-topic point, statements like "The mindset is so different from Asia" really make my skin crawl.	”

yup!

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare You might want to cook that thought a little more. If the belt system is necessary because "The mindset is so different from Asia that the belt levels help to teach the patience, perseverance and practice needed to reach the skills the arts have to develop." how do you reconcile that with the fact that the belt system came from "Asia"? And on a slightly off-topic point, statements like "The mindset is so different from Asia" really make my skin crawl.	”

Too true.

Last time I checked Japan was in Asia Check my post again SLT

“	I think it would be difficult for a school in America to not have a belt system, (sashes are the same thing as a belt, just called something else, but it is still tied around the waist, and is usually a color to discern a particular level)	”

I don't see how many schools can be successful without a belt ranking system, just because everybody else is doing it. It is the norm and most everybody expects it. However a few can strategically pull off not having a ranking system.

“	And on a slightly off-topic point, statements like "The mindset is so different from Asia" really make my skin crawl.	”

Even though it may be hidden in chinese styles, they do have ranking systems. think of terms such of si-hing, si-je. In old day's of china those would be the terms you would call the person who joins the school before you, and there would be other other terms to call your younger brother by. Everybody would know their rank in this system. Even in the shaolin temple there was a ranking system.... isn't buddhism suppose to do away with this. Such cultural practices such as bowing to an alter or buddha show this; where you hold the insence shows your rank. You shouldn't hold the insence higher than your senior.

So I would agree with your point. It is just more visible so it can be pointed out easier. We take a brunt of junk from bashers because we are classified into westerns, I will say there are more similarities than that meet they eye. However I don't want to discount how culture plays a role in our thinking... we will percieve things differently even though they may be the same.

“	It's true about the benefits of colored belts, or even just levels, seeing them as a goal to attain and a way to compare skill with fellow students. As long as the student is being allowed/encouraged to attain that skill, and not pushed up the ladder to be a cash cow, the method is fine.	”

I don't see anything wrong with promoting retention through the use of a ranking system. Most of us are in America, and we get what we pay for. Or we pay for what we percieve to be getting. For business owners (not just martial artists) this allows them to live a lifestyle they want.

However if the teacher does it just for the love and doesn't promote a business strategy, you may end up learning in a garage with Sifu who can only teach twice a week every other week because their job calls on them to fly around the world as a flight attendant so that they can buy food and have a style of living they want.

If you think about it this could be good for the dedicated students, they have competent instructors who can devote their time, training equipment, a training hall, and a barage of people to practice with. Myself I would never know if a technique worked if I only practiced with 2 different body structures.

So I don't know why people rant and rave about people making money off martial arts.... Did they have a bad experince with TKD? And is ATA TKD, which has a strong business model, a bad thing? I don't think so. They apparently have something to offer that people are willing to pay for, otherwise they would go by the wayside.

The whole time the student is being a cash cow they are learning and perfecting their skill. You pay you get, a basic relationship. You part with something you value to gain something of equal value to you, or since you are investing in yourself you part with something of value to invest in yourself to gain greater value.

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"You're lucky buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I have the desire to kick your ass!" -Richard Gere- from the Simpsons

just so their aren't any disputes about what a cash cow is because it is such a harsh sounding word here are a few defintions.

The second link shows the boston consulting group matrix, it shows how a cash cow can be a good thing because it provides oppurtunities for further investements. In the martial world this can mean many things, use your imagination. ATA TKD might take the money they earn and support a tournament, which everybody in that group would benfit from. However within your school it could be something totally different.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:CASH+COW

http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/...bcgmatrix.html

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"You're lucky buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I have the desire to kick your ass!" -Richard Gere- from the Simpsons

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare You might want to cook that thought a little more. If the belt system is necessary because "The mindset is so different from Asia that the belt levels help to teach the patience, perseverance and practice needed to reach the skills the arts have to develop." how do you reconcile that with the fact that the belt system came from "Asia"? And on a slightly off-topic point, statements like "The mindset is so different from Asia" really make my skin crawl.	”

And if you are from UK or Europe, "Asian" means something totally different than the way it's used in the US.

As for the belt system, didn't it come to the US via Japan? What was it's original intent there? For sport ranking?

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“	Originally Posted By: fireinthewater just so their aren't any disputes about what a cash cow is because it is such a harsh sounding word here are a few defintions. The second link shows the boston consulting group matrix, it shows how a cash cow can be a good thing because it provides oppurtunities for further investements. In the martial world this can mean many things, use your imagination. ATA TKD might take the money they earn and support a tournament, which everybody in that group would benfit from. However within your school it could be something totally different. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:CASH+COW http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/...bcgmatrix.html	”

You are right. Many schools "need" a cash cow so they can continue to accept and train "real" students. They may need to offer "tai chi lite", "aerobic kickboxing", yoga classes, "Kung Fu Kids" etc. to appeal to American time and fitness tastes. But many of these places also offer more traditional study of styles. Some even branch out from their original style and offer classes from other "styles" that are considered "more mma friendly". But if you talk to the owner/master in charge, I'd bet they would tell you their first love is their traditional art, and the passing on of those skills to students who they think will embrace it and stick with it.

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