Does your school use belts?

I don't see anything wrong with promoting retention through use of a ranking system, either.

There's just good and bad to be found in every method. If you're looking at martial arts from a purely business standpoint, then certain actions make sense in order to keep the doors open. If you're looking at martial arts purely from an emotional standpoint (the tradition, the individual student, the desire to not compromise your art, etc.), there's a good chance you'll end up teaching out of your garage to a few select students. (And there's not a thing wrong with that, if you're happy.)

But working purely from a business standpoint turns your students into numbers, and very rapidly you will stop caring about them and their needs and achievements, and just start churning out the certificates. And working purely from an emotional standpoint almost guarantees that you will be hurt by your students, either financially (they never pay you because you teach out of a garage) or personally.

Somewhere in there is a happy medium -- if you want to teach for a living. Tai Chi Mantis' example of the compromises that have to be made in business is a good one. Even styles that don't branch out still get most of their income from beginners, who tend to rotate in & out pretty fast.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: TaichiMantis And if you are from UK or Europe, "Asian" means something totally different than the way it's used in the US. As for the belt system, didn't it come to the US via Japan? What was it's original intent there? For sport ranking?	”

Read my quote!

As I prepare to being teaching, Ive been considering this belt thing more and more. Im not sure exactly how I want to do it, but it seems to me that having some kind of visually measurable device to signify where a person has gotten in their training is a good thing. Maybe not with a belt, but perhaps with 2 different styles of shirt. Level 1 is someone who wears what they want. The next level could be someone wearing a school shirt, and another level could be someone wearing an instructor or asst instructor shirt...

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

Page 21 of this manual will show you what skills are tested for each sash level at the Shaolin Chuan Fa school we are affiliated with. My sifu doesn't follow it exactly since he also teaches TCMP (most of the forms we learn).

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I find that the people that say they don't care about belts are often those that don't have any.

Belts work well in schools and with our culture. Real earning belts have a value what has taken away from that are the ones in the belt biz, but those aside a path from point A to B when clear in the mind works well with the nature of the mind as most people depend on a strutured mind and as a result a structured enviroment is productive even for the individual.

I agree the belt don't make you a good martial artist but being a good martial artist should be how you got it.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

“	Originally Posted By: aqira I find that the people that say they don't care about belts are often those that don't have any.	”

LOL...
that's true

“	Originally Posted By: aqira Real earning belts have a value what has taken away from that are the ones in the belt biz, but those aside a path from point A to B when clear in the mind works well with the nature of the mind as most people depend on a strutured mind and as a result a structured enviroment is productive even for the individual.	”

my friend Marc is black belt Kyokoshin (doesn't care about his belt either btw...)
when we were training and Gordeau gave a guest lesson, he wore his belt since he trained kyokoshin with that man in the past
after some sparring it was hanging loose and touched the ground....

not good...

he should respect his belt because it stood for all the hard work he had put into earning that etc. etc....

kinda over the top in my eyes, but knowing where these guys are coming from and how incredibly hard they've worked to get that black belt I can also understand it...

it's a good thing that they don't know that I have Marc's belt now and use it for some training and to tie up stuff

Chief108

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“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl If you're looking at martial arts purely from an emotional standpoint (the tradition, the individual student, the desire to not compromise your art, etc.), there's a good chance you'll end up teaching out of your garage to a few select students. (And there's not a thing wrong with that, if you're happy.)	”

Nope, nothing wrong at all.

“	And working purely from an emotional standpoint almost guarantees that you will be hurt by your students, either financially (they never pay you because you teach out of a garage) or personally.	”

How so?

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: aqira I find that the people that say they don't care about belts are often those that don't have any.	”

I have several. And unlike many at the school I used to go to, I beleive I earned them. The Masters there would work some students harder because they knew tat some people were earning, and some just paying their way through.

But at my current school that doesn't base everything around that belt system, I am much happier.

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"When the battle is over, tighten your chin strap." ~Old Japanese Saying
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Hung Gar/Win Chung student

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman How so?	”

Well -- and these are entirely secondhand experiences, from a couple of acquaintances who teach privately -- an instructor can be hurt by a student in different ways, depending on what was invested in the student and what return was expected.

One of these instructors accepts very few students and has very high expectations of them. If they slack off or quit, he takes it personally, maybe too much IMO.

The other instructor will accept anyone who's interested, and if they can't handle the daily training and quit, it doesn't bother him. But the ones who are there regularly, often can't/don't pay their tuition. It's not his primary source of income, but he's there after work every day teaching them, and it bothers him that they also don't take up his offer to repay some other way, by cleaning the training area or something.

So it's largely individual as to what bothers a private instructor, but IMO the hurt is deeper because much more personal time and work are invested in each student.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Good point Sammy. Even for medium sized schools, instructors can get dejected and upset. I have seen a senor student get in an argument with the teacher and quist on the spot. Also, a group of people all leaving at once because of a difference a couple have with the teacher.

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"When the battle is over, tighten your chin strap." ~Old Japanese Saying
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Hung Gar/Win Chung student

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Well -- and these are entirely secondhand experiences, from a couple of acquaintances who teach privately -- an instructor can be hurt by a student in different ways, depending on what was invested in the student and what return was expected. One of these instructors accepts very few students and has very high expectations of them. If they slack off or quit, he takes it personally, maybe too much IMO. The other instructor will accept anyone who's interested, and if they can't handle the daily training and quit, it doesn't bother him. But the ones who are there regularly, often can't/don't pay their tuition. It's not his primary source of income, but he's there after work every day teaching them, and it bothers him that they also don't take up his offer to repay some other way, by cleaning the training area or something. So it's largely individual as to what bothers a private instructor, but IMO the hurt is deeper because much more personal time and work are invested in each student.	”

I can see your point.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

<<I have several>>

In 2 years of shaolin?

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

no, before i took shaolin I took TKD.

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"When the battle is over, tighten your chin strap." ~Old Japanese Saying
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Hung Gar/Win Chung student

That explains the several part.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Thats why I started this thread, i wanted to see what peple thaught of them. As I meantioned in the forst post. My current school doesn't use them. My former school did.

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"When the battle is over, tighten your chin strap." ~Old Japanese Saying
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Hung Gar/Win Chung student