Martial Arts + Weapons + Guns + Survival = Total Self-Defense

This topic was a sub-thread that started in another thread, and I thought it was worthy of it's own thread, so here goes.

The discussion was pertaining to martial arts and warfare, and some folks posted that there was no connection. I'm not sure where they get this concept, but it might be that they were trying to focus on true separation of hand-to-hand combat techniques, and weapons of war, such as guns, tanks, airplanes, etc.

I want to take this one step further.

First, I will step right in up to my shoulders and say that I love the martial arts. Then, I'l step in up to my eyebrows and go ahead and tell everybody I am very pro-gun, and that I own and am trained on several modern small arms weapons formats. Not through any kind of military training, but by purchasing the weapons myself, legally, and then seeking out professional training for several different things, pistols, shotguns, carbine training, etc.

I equate both as equals, and the formulation of anything I have learned may one day save my life.

On top of all of that, I am of a pro-survivalist mentality, as well as a backpacker, and I could fend for myself out in the wild.

To me, and in my opinion, all of this is self-defense.

In fact, to me, self-defense goes beyond some octagon or MMA technique that has only been popualr for 20 or so years. Self-defense starts in nature when the first two cells are created in the womb, and must struggle to survive in order to grow into a human being.

Typically, with the MMA, we have the perfect example of an American martial art. Very much like the "quick-fix" of the McDonald's Cheeseburger, which has but one goal, stripped of all others, to make the stomach stop growling. Such as it is with the MMA. Typically a fast-food approach to the martial arts and self-defense, that has been completely stripped of any of the deeper Asian philosophies, to fit into a small cube, or should I say... an octagon. Sort of like one of those funny shaped paper boxes McDonald's sells their Quarter Pounders in, but different.

On one hand, McDonald's would have the world to believe that their version of nutrition is what everyone should eat, just like the MMA folks wish us to swallow the boast that their version of martial arts is the only thing worth pursuing. Fast food martial arts. So much for gormet cooking and Asian culture... fast food has no need for spices and deeper influences, MMA has no need (supposedly by reading what some folks here post) for the deeper, philosophical and traditional Asian cultutral things, so, I call it "fast foo martial arts." It's a quick-fix, but it isn't very healthy. Much like eating at McDonald's isn't very healthy if you make a steady diet out of it. I am not talking about nutrition, I am making a word-picture example between how I view fast food, and what I believe is the MMA way, fast food martial arts.

The same shallow foolishness can be attributed to music. Some musicians, or even music fans, only trust what the media tells them is good, and never delve into the deeper things of what the history, philosophy, and culture of music entails. Pop music is what I could call "fast food music." I'll pick just one music to compare, because I think the comparison is relavent, and then I'll expound on more. Pop music is what I could call "fast food music."

Blues.

To many people, blues music is a depressing, boring, historically dead entity. But blues is the driving historical force that brought us something very American and very popular, rock and roll music. Originally blues music was only played by African American folks, very much like Asian martial arts at one time were only practicied by folks from Asia. But as the country grew, Caucasians wanted to play the blues, and because of Segregation, a new name was needed, and they called it rock and roll. There is a lot of similarity between traditional blues studies and playing popular music. MMA fighting is close to the philosophy and Americanized mind-set of popular music. Pop music throws out any and all philosophical discussions, traditions, and cultural investigating, and gets a "quick fix" by creating a musical composition that gets immediate airplay, and sells lot's of CD's. Pop music is, to coin a phrase "fast food music."


The mentality of the big record companies who push pop music down out throats through the media in order to win the ultimate almighty dollar, who ignore music history (except when it is convenient to tie their fast-ffod music to tradition) are very much like the MMA folks are trying to boast and claim things about the Octagon battles. The Octagon makes money, that is really the bottom line, it is also funded out of Las Vegas now... ever wonder about that? A lot of big entertainment is centered around Las Vegas, and there is also a lot of gambling that is done around big entertainment sports. The bottom line is, they rescued it from being wiped off the air waves by selling out to a few more rules, and changing management. The larger corporate mind took charge, and began to exploit for capitalistic gain. Much like is done in popular music, much like is done by fast food restaurants. Ignore the details, cut the fat, and make the bucks. That's the American way...

Ignoring history, philosophy, religion, or anything else that gets in the way of their "quick fix."

MMA folks typically repeat the rhetoric they read about in the MMA and Grappling mags boasting a claim almost as if traditional martial arts are dead, and useless, because "now we have something better, the Octagon." They have forsaken the cultural roots, history, and philosophy, only to concentrate on the pure brutal carnage aspect of hand-to-hand combat. Like I said... "fast food martial arts..."

For a street fight, that is not a bad idea.

But if you are interested in self-defense, the topic of self-defense is much deeper than can be contained in the Octagon.

And as far as the warfare versus martial arts argument... pick up the June and July issues of Blackbelt Magazine. In the June issue, UFC warrior, Frank Shamrock was asked to give a seminar on fighting skills to the United States Marine Corps. The perfect mesh of martial arts and warfare, a Marine who can fight like an MMA-trained UFC champion. This is a great idea. I am all for it, and it is a great application. But it is not the completeness of any and all aspects of self-defense. Self-defense is deeper, and contains many more aspects than simply warfare and Octogan battles. Self-defense is something you can practice in all aspects of your life, and is not at all liumited to only street fighting techniques that are effective in martial confrontations. To say UFC fighting can replace the deeply cultural aspects of traditional martial arts, is complete non-sense, and a very shallow approach to life. But not all of us are deep, I suppose. Some would rather use brawn than their brain, so it has it's applications for some. Just not all and eberybody.

It may be a minority of us when it is over, who will carry on the traditional arts in many ways.

I have spent a great deal of my life studying blues music. The history behind it, the religion folks have practiced that play the blues, the traditions of where it came from. That is my approach to the martial arts, as well, I love the historical stuff, the philosophical stuff, and the cultural studies. To strip the art of these things to me would be utter foolishness. Wisdom dictates that in order to perpetual the species of man, man must know his history. If you throw out just the historical references of the martial arts, you have already lost out. You have cheated yourself in an education, and you are closer to a brutal barbarian than an educated, civilized person. You can make that choice if you like, as long as you know what you are getting your self in to, or more appropriately, what you will be lacking when you are older, and unable to compete in the brutal battles. Then you will be the resultant student of a fast food martial art, and I would not want to spend my years studying something so limited, and stripped of history, religion, philosophy, and culture. But that is the American way. Strip anything of it's true beauty, and make the fast capitalistic buck. Here today and gone tomorrow.

And so is the path of such warriors.

No glory in the relative history of ancient civilization, it will only become a small timespot of which we are all subject to, and those of us who stand firm in the traditional arts, are now subject to prejudices thrown out and about by the new MMA crowd and it's capitalistic propaganda machine. No problem, when the MMA "fad" wears off, I will still have my traditional values and education, and I can add a small couple of paragraphs to martial arts history that pertain to the brief period of time when these fights were in the limelight. When the popularity wears off, and Americans have all seen the sesational fights, they will become as boring as the next space shuttle launch. At one time, launching a spacecraft into the atmosphere caught any and all media attention, but now, to most, it is not sensational at all, and has become a boring news item.

I am already bored with the MMA. Maybe that is why I don't crawl over the martial arts fence and join ranks. I find nothing there that challenges my intellect. I find no religion, I find nothing deeply cultural to grab ahold of, so it bores me to death. Watching a fight stimulates the emotions, but turning up the volume on a new pop song can have a similar effect. I am not alive to be stimulated only emotionally. I need deeper stuff to latch on to, and the MMA is not deep, therefore, to me it is boring.

No bones about that, either, and I am sure there are millions like me that are just as easily bored by the MMA and the Octagon. Of course, I'm not into football, basketball, hockey, or baseball, either... some folks spend most of there off hours entertaining themselves with these simple sports. It's an emotional addiction of sorts, and watching sporting events bores me completely. There are much better things to do with my time.

Like study history, philosophy, religion, and culture.....

*******

Also...,

...anyone who would claim that warfare and martial arts do not have any cultural mixture, does not know the history of the ancient martial arts. The Jujutsu of the Samarai, the Kung Fu of the Shaolin monks. Fuedal Japan and the Samarai, the Chinese government calling upon the Shaolin Temple to turn the tide of battle in their favor... Each has a history of being mixed with warfare. Each is also a self-defense system. Each also has history, politics, philosophy, and cultural aspects. In history, they are glued togehter, they are only separate here in the states, where people can be "anti-war-protestors" yet still practice the martial arts... sort of an ironay, isn't it?

I am not "anti-MMA" (completely) because I know it has it's place in history, and it has a definite place in capitalistic entertainment. We shouldn't forget that the UFC fights are promoted to make money, that is really the bottom line, and part of their propaganda is the claim that they have proven classical martial arts training is useless. (blah-blah-blah) It's all part of the "McDonald's Cheeseburger" approach to the martial arts of the UFC. It has it's place, it does many things, but in now way is it an "end-all" or substitue for classical martial arts training.

There will always be a need for history, philosophical studies, and the deeper things of the traditional martial arts. I am also not surprised how easily Americans are swayed by the media-tized influence of these very brutal, public fights. Most UFC fans are not even martial artists. They are beer-drinking, ticket buyers who like to see blood and guts. The money they have poured into the UFC fights, has allowed the UFC the capital finacial funding to propagandize boasts and slogans that what they have is greater than the sum total of all traditional martial arts of all time.

Bull cookies.

I do not dispute that UFC fighting has pointed to the best one-on-one of streamlined techniques, stripped of all philosophy, culture, and history. It's a great way to sell tickets.

It's also a great way to ruin thousands of years of cultural world history, if people were to swallow the whole unchewable UFC pill.

Nothing will ever replace the artistic achievements of traditional martial arts. You can not slide in 20 years of octagon fighting to replace the centuries of historical study of culture, philosophy, and religious beliefs.

I have no problem with any man or woman saying that they choose to NOT study history, philosophy or religion, but please don't try to tell folks their way is the only way. There are many ways.

Back to the way of the gun.

Because I am a martial artist does not mean that I must be anti-gun. In fact, defending myself with a pistol, rifle or shotgun is a very viable means of self-defense, and is part of the things I have studied in my life as a portion of what I personally believe is self-defense. Some people have problems with guns, but I am not one of those people. I am very pro-gun, and quite frankly, I feel every person ought to own two or three. But that's just me, and that's just millions of other Americans who believe in their 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

On top of just buying a gun, there are also many schools across the nation that can train you on how to use the weapons you buy. Reputibale organzations that will train you in a safe environment to learn how to put firepower downrange on an enemy target. In America, this training is open to law enforcement officers, and civilians alike. In my own personal philosophy, it is an extension of my martial ability.

In my viewpoint, you cannot separate warfare and the martial arts. Both are forms of self-defense, but there is an ingredient that can be mixed in between the two that possesses no martial abilitity, and no weaponry, that ingredient is survivalism.

I suppose that if most grocery-store shopping folks were to be caught out in the wild, not a lot of folks would do well at first. If you are too far from a grocery store to use your VISA card, and the situation is one of an emergency and you must use survival skills, how many folks would really survive? It would behoove anyone who is truly into self-preservation to spend sometime studying or practicing good survivalist skills.

Buy a backpack, a tent, and whatever tools and gear you need, and get out there in the woods, just you and nature. Leave surburbia behind for the weekend, or for several weeks, and put yourself to the true test.

Survivalism is part of self-defense. You don't learn survival techniques in a martial arts school, but survival is self-defense. You don't learn survival techniques in the Octagon, either, but it doesn't mean it isn't necessary or effective training.

My point, and the topic here is this:

Martial Arts + Weapons + Guns + Survival (+ a lot more) = Total Self-defense.

Self-defense is a VERY wide topic, and it can no way be limited to an octagon, a dojo, a kwoon, a bootcamp, or any one thing.

As I said earlier in this thread, self-defense comes to us first through nature. As our cells connect and multiply, they must survive from day one. But I guess you would have to settle down long enought to learn some basic biology or anatomy to learn these things. If you cast out all educational benefits to life, you might just die a fool.

There are other ingredients to self-defense that I haven't even touched on...

--Eating right...
--Taking care of your finances...
--Nurturing your children...
--Tending to your family...

Just keeping a clean house, free from clutter and bacteria is one form of self-defense. You don't learn house keeping in the octagon, dojo, or kwoon (however, you might pull KP in the Marines.. ha). If housekeeping isn't taught in the Octagon, it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep a clean house. However, folks can live like a pig, and be great fighters, I suppose. But there is more to life than what is taught in the UFC/MMA and to me, my martial arts includes a complete system of living... something the UFC/MMA fighting does not... iot only teaches you how to be a brutal street fighter. The only time you need that is when you are in a brutal street fight, and really, how many times does anybody get into a brutal street fight in their life? Not very often, unless you are constant braggin about your fighting skills, and looking for a challenege everyday of your life. To the braggert, and the boaster, MMA is ideal, but for a deeper approach to life in general, it is actually completely boring.

Sometimes the shallowness of some people really amazes me, and how easily some people can be led astray at the influence of the almighty dollar and the propaganda it can buy. Peer pressures, popularity contests, all of these things I've seen in the martial arts community. If we don't bow down to the almalgamated system of collective thought, then we are supposedly wrong.

Incorrect.

Nothing anyone can copy/paste here and conjecture upon about any of my personal philosophies is going to have a very formidable influence on my personal stance on life, religion, philosophy, fighting, peace, weapons, guns, war, or neutrality. I have my own personal viewpoints, and for me they work 100%. So, copy and paste away, add your comments, but the bottom line is... to me, I am right 100%. And if you want to blow smoke, and raise your post count by copy/pasting comments, go ahead. It doesn't change anything. I am still right. Even if you disagree 100%.

I do care, because I wish more people took a deeper approach to life like I do. But as long as we have McDonald's Cheeseburgers, Mixed Martial Arts, and Anti-Gun folks, the world still revolves, and to each their own boat floats.

But if you expect that I will ever back down, or agree with any other limited viewpoints, you may wish to find another place to blow smoke.

Because here, whether you like it or not,

Martial Arts + Weapons + Guns + Survival (+ a lot more) = Total Self-Defense

Anything less is cheating yourself out of the best of what life has to offer.

My 2 cents...



FG

I enjoyed reading that. Good stuff.
... Why do I get the feeling some people wouldnt touch this with a ten foot pole?

__________________
"Life is finite, while knowledge is infinite."
- Zhuang Zi (date unknown).

Wow...
I feel like this thread was aimed directly at me... go figure.... Maybe all the mention of MMA and "the people that post here about it"...

Anyway, I don't have the time to post on all that diatribe right now as I am about to crash but be certain that I will be back to retort at length tomorrow.

Just a few things to think about in the mean time...

Martial arts and self defense are related and not mutually exclusive, agreed, but MA is simply a small part of it and is best equated with what you stated, hand to hand combat.
I should hope that my own self defense should never require that I personally purchase a nuclear warhead or learn to drive a tank.
Like I stated before, 99% of the people here do not equate martial arts with warfare, as was stated by many in "that other thread".

Secondly, MMA is simply a sport, and as such has absolutely no need for a "philosophy". Just like NFL football players have no need for foreign history or culture, tradition, dogmatic ritual or philosophy. They simply need the skills to play the game. Quit referring to MMA as if it's some established style or school of thought. It is simply a sport that allows many different techniques from many different styles.

Just some things to chew on until I get back tomorrow.

Peace-
Cam

__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

How many cans of worms can you open in one post? That has to be some sort of record!

It seems to me that MMA has to be too slippery a concept for such easy definitions - and so for this kind of discussion. I understand the whole point as going and learning what you feel you need from those you feel can teach it best, and then combining what you have learned in your own way. In learning to use handguns, for example, you are mixing your TMA training with modern weapons training - mixing martial arts...

As regards competitions - there are all sorts of things any competition format doesn't address. The whole point of training is you prepare for a situation without experiencing it.

I think your metaphors are a little unfair. I tend to think of it as mountaineering vs bouldering, with more traditional training being mountaineering and mma competition being bouldering. To be any good at bouldering you need top class technique, fitness, flair and courage. You don't need to know much about reading the weather, living in the mountains, dealing with wild animals, navigating, coping with extreme conditions, first aid, rope work, cooking. A mountaineer doesn't have to be as fit, or as technical, or take the same risks.

In terms of the wider range of skills making up self defense - I would agree, but there are a whole lot more - and in the end they can be summed up quite simply as "get along with people and if you can't attack first with overwhelming numbers and overpowering weapons" - but we all still train

Survival training is something I know a reasonable amount about, enough to know that much of the training done by the military is a bit of a joke. Why shouldn't it be the same with Martial Arts? The average squaddie is disposable cannon fodder, and trained as such. Some private outfits emphasise martial arts training but that's for non-military applications.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Good post!
its nice to see that for some, MARTIAL still means WARLIKE!

__________________
Blessed be the lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight ...Psalms 144.1

That's a whole lot to chew on FG! Don't know how much was aimed directly at Cam, although as the biggest representative of MMA on this board a lot of that falls into his territory. He's one of the more reasonable MMA'ists I've seen on the boards as a whole, maybe because he actually practices MMA, coaches & fights. Unlike posters on other BB's who I suspect have very little to no experience in MMA whatsoever, but who are the most virulent & vocal of the anti-traditionalists on the internet, and have probably churned up the majority of bad feelings between MMA & traditional arts.

Traditional MA is full of its braggarts, egomaniacs & outright liars, too, which you touched on. Sometimes it's difficult to deal with ... sometimes it's people in your system ... sometimes it's trying to get through a tourney division without putting your elbow in the face of the Talky Terry next to you who won't shut up about how every competitor so far just sucks compared to her.

I see martial arts much in the way I look at military arts. There are many different facets to each. Fighting is just one of them.

When I was in army basic, we tended to pester our drill sergeant with questions at every opportunity. When do we get our rifles? "When I say so." When can we put covers on our steel pots? "When you qualify with your rifle." Will we be soldiers then? "No! There's a lot more to being a soldier than knowing how to use a rifle." Are you going to break us down and build us up into soldiers then? "No! Unfortunately we have to build on what's already there, if you're a dirtbag then that's all I have to work with." Should we think of ourselves as one color, like a green machine? "No! You're individuals in the same uniform, not machines. I won't give a rifle to someone who can't use their head." And so on. He tended to punctuate his answers by whacking us across the helmet with his treasured barrel rod in the hopes of the information sinking in better that way. I don't know how well it worked because those old steel pots rang like a gong every time he did that.

Anyway -- military arts (which really haven't changed much in 3000 years, except for the technology and the 3-dimensional aspect added by air power) have many different aspects, fighting being just one. Physicality, respect, pride, fellowship, self-control, self-discipline, education all factor into it at the base level. In military specializations one will tend more toward certain facets than others (infantry toward physical prowess, discipline, etc.; intelligence toward higher education, and so on).

Civilian martial arts can take a lesson from military arts -- the real lessons, not the emulation of drill-sergeant screaming and upper-belt-level arrogance that some schools practice. That of the improvement of the self overall, and helping one's buddies to improve as well. If a school does that -- no matter what the style -- then it is a good school.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Good posts by John and Sammy.
I'll be back on later tonight to write my epistle!!!!

Peace-
Cam

__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla Nothing anyone can copy/paste here and conjecture upon about any of my personal philosophies is going to have a very formidable influence on my personal stance on life, religion, philosophy, fighting, peace, weapons, guns, war, or neutrality. I have my own personal viewpoints, and for me they work 100%. So, copy and paste away, add your comments, but the bottom line is... to me, I am right 100%. And if you want to blow smoke, and raise your post count by copy/pasting comments, go ahead. It doesn't change anything. I am still right. Even if you disagree 100%. I do care, because I wish more people took a deeper approach to life like I do. But as long as we have McDonald's Cheeseburgers, Mixed Martial Arts, and Anti-Gun folks, the world still revolves, and to each their own boat floats. But if you expect that I will ever back down, or agree with any other limited viewpoints, you may wish to find another place to blow smoke.	”

As deep, enlightened, and informed as you claim to be, you have essentially said, "I refuse to learn."

There are people on this forum who could, no doubt, provide you with useful, factual information and equally useful and beneficial opinions. Your kindergartenish chant of "I am right and you are all wrong," while sticking your fingers in your ears reveals an underlying lack of confidence in your own position and a departure from the deeper, philosophical values (see the oft repeated zen koan of "emptying your cup") you claim to value so highly.

You say you wish people took a deeper approach to life like you do. I'd say you first have to exhibit the change in yourself you wish to see in others. Also, it wouldn’t hurt for you to have a little more acceptance for the differences of others – not everybody wants what you want, but that doesn’t make them worthless.

Having said that, I’m going to respond anyway.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla … I am very pro-gun, and that I own and am trained on several modern small arms weapons formats. Not through any kind of military training, but by purchasing the weapons myself, legally, and then seeking out professional training for several different things, pistols, shotguns, carbine training, etc. I equate both as equals, and the formulation of anything I have learned may one day save my life. On top of all of that, I am of a pro-survivalist mentality, as well as a backpacker, and I could fend for myself out in the wild. To me, and in my opinion, all of this is self-defense. In fact, to me, self-defense goes beyond some octagon or MMA technique that has only been popualr for 20 or so years. Typically, with the MMA, we have the perfect example of an American martial art. Very much like the "quick-fix" of the McDonald's Cheeseburger, which has but one goal, stripped of all others, to make the stomach stop growling. MMA has no need (supposedly by reading what some folks here post) for the deeper, philosophical and traditional Asian cultutral things, so, I call it "fast foo martial arts." It's a quick-fix, but it isn't very healthy.	”

I did not quote this section in full because it was rather long, so I’ve narrowed it down to a few of the points you tried to make. You begin by generally outlining your personal definition of self defense. Next, you take MMA to task for not containing the elements you feel are necessary in defining self defense, while also stating that MMA has no deep, philosophical Asian tradition and that it is “fast food martial arts.”

First, if you are going to criticize MMA for not encompassing the deep, Asian underpinnings of some martial arts, for lacking elements of survivalist training and firearms and, um..backpacking… I’d ask you to point to one of the classical Asian arts you admire so much and show me its roots in all these elements as well. I am not talking about adapting a general principle to fit a specific pet example, nor a non-martial example that shows its incorporation at some level of society. I am talking about specific evidence for specific examples. I think you’ll be stopped after the “Asian philosophy and tradition” part. However, if you come up with an ancient scroll of kanbun written by Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki or the like in which he notes the fundamental importance of the aforementioned elements, I’ll stand corrected. The closest you might get to some of those links is the Bansenshukai or something, but even that doesn’t demonstrate a widespread tradition in martial arts and is a tenuous connection at best.

Second, realize that MMA is a sport. It is not intended to be a “do,” in the Japanese sense, nor is its overt raison d’etre to show its practitioners a path to enlightenment. It is a sport. Your comments are just as irrelevant as if you’d decided to point out that western boxing or freestyle wrestling have no Asian philosophical backgrounds. Again, MMA is a SPORT.

One question – why did you specifically mention “Asian cultural things?” There are martial traditions throughout the world that are both ancient and deeply philosophical, so I’m wondering why the specific mention of Asia?

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla The Octagon makes money, that is really the bottom line, it is also funded out of Las Vegas now... ever wonder about that? A lot of big entertainment is centered around Las Vegas, and there is also a lot of gambling that is done around big entertainment sports. The bottom line is, they rescued it from being wiped off the air waves by selling out to a few more rules, and changing management. The larger corporate mind took charge, and began to exploit for capitalistic gain. Much like is done in popular music, much like is done by fast food restaurants. Ignore the details, cut the fat, and make the bucks. That's the American way... Ignoring history, philosophy, religion, or anything else that gets in the way of their "quick fix."	”

Ah, and certainly there is no parallel in TMA. I’m sure none of us have ever witnessed TMA schools who quickly blow students through an enormous number of ranks, each costing quite a bit of money. Of course, there would never be TMA schools that would dumb down their curriculum in order to retain a student population who didn’t want to work quite as hard as their predecessors. None of us, I am quite certain, have ever seen martial arts symposiums, seminars, or organizations whose sole purpose is to teach methods, programs, and techniques for generating the greatest revenue possible from your school.

Seriously, if you are going to slam the UFC for trying to make money, please don’t act as if capitalism is an unknown concept in the world of TMA. If you haven’t seen schools that opened for the express purpose of making money, feel free to come over and hop in the car with me one day. I’ll drive you to a few of them.

Personally, I think it’s just fine if martial arts schools try to make as much money as they can. I don’t agree with the ways some of them do it, but if a school stays true to the principles of their art and generates income by providing a quality service and product (as many of them do), then great. Nothing at all wrong with making money so that you can afford to continue spreading your art.

In the end, of course the UFC is, to its owners, about making money. Do you expect their goal to be world enlightenment through combative sports? Are you now suggesting that combative sports such as MMA or boxing should force feed history, philosophy, morality, and religion to its audience? The aim of MMA and the aims of TMA are not identical. You are criticizing MMA for not being something it didn’t claim to be in the first place.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla MMA folks typically repeat the rhetoric they read about in the MMA and Grappling mags boasting a claim almost as if traditional martial arts are dead, and useless, because "now we have something better, the Octagon." They have forsaken the cultural roots, history, and philosophy, only to concentrate on the pure brutal carnage aspect of hand-to-hand combat. Like I said... "fast food martial arts..." For a street fight, that is not a bad idea. But if you are interested in self-defense, the topic of self-defense is much deeper than can be contained in the Octagon.	”

Would you agree that it’s fair say that most TMA practitioners disparage MMA, feel that TMA is better than MMA in all regards, and claim that they cannot compete in MMA because their techniques are too deadly or secretive and they might kill someone? I wouldn’t. Yet this is the same sort of inaccurate generalization you ascribe to MMA enthusiasts. You will certainly find some MMA practitioners who scorn TMA, just as you will find some TMA folks who fit the stereotype I mentioned above. I do not think they are representative of the masses of their respective populations.

Also, I would agree that sometimes you will hear someone connected with MMA, an announcer for example, make a comment about the ineffectiveness of TMA. This is almost always in the context of MMA rules. The point is this – when a TMA practitioner has entered an MMA competition using TMA strategies, the results has almost always been a loss for the TMA practitioner. That is not a shot at TMA. It is simply making the point that strict adherence to TMA is not the best strategy for winning an MMA bout. Conversely, an MMA strategy will likely result in a loss for the MMA practitioner in the context of boxing rules, tae kwon do rules, point karate competition, a kyokushinai bout, and so on. It’s not a value judgment of the innate worth of the art or sport – it’s a comment on the functionality of that approach in a particular context.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla Self-defense is deeper, and contains many more aspects than simply warfare and Octogan battles. Self-defense is something you can practice in all aspects of your life, and is not at all liumited to only street fighting techniques that are effective in martial confrontations. To say UFC fighting can replace the deeply cultural aspects of traditional martial arts, is complete non-sense, and a very shallow approach to life. But not all of us are deep, I suppose. Some would rather use brawn than their brain, so it has it's applications for some. Just not all and eberybody. It may be a minority of us when it is over, who will carry on the traditional arts in many ways.	”

Again, MMA is not trying to be a holistic approach to living, an effective means of street self defense, or anything of the sort. It is trying to be a sport. End of story. I’m not sure what’s difficult about this idea.

Who in the MMA community have you heard say that MMA is intended to convey or replace the cultural aspects of TMA? At the very most, you might hear practitioners talk about the “warrior spirit,” of the fighters, or the mental attributes that support the physical ones, but I’ve never heard anyone try to sell the idea that MMA is seeking to supplant TMA in any manner related to cultural education or history.

Finally, your post at this point is becoming increasingly more elitist, but it really shows when you begin calling others’ approach to life “shallow,” and exhibiting open disdain for them for not being as “deep,” as you. I think if you are as deep and philosophical as you pretend to be, you would not feel the need to make statements such as these.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla Then you will be the resultant student of a fast food martial art, and I would not want to spend my years studying something so limited, and stripped of history, religion, philosophy, and culture. But that is the American way. Strip anything of it's true beauty, and make the fast capitalistic buck. Here today and gone tomorrow. And so is the path of such warriors.	”

Do you have a thorough knowledge of the development of the American economy? Are you well versed in the content of debates that raged between agrarians and industrialists along the way to forming our current views of economy and class? Any idea of how the opposing ideologies of such early figures as William Bradford, John Smith, Thomas Morton, Roger Williams, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton and a myriad of others shaped the direction of the country and the definition of the American dream? Have you taken time to understand the dynamic between the early settlers and colonists who advocated erasing the history of the indigenous population against those who saw the value in preserving their culture and the ripple effect we feel to this day as a result? Do you know how many organizations exist in the US for the express purpose of preserving and promoting culture in its various forms and origins? I’m going to guess that you don’t, given the careless way in which you defined,” the American way.” Yes, I’m on a rant because yesterday was Independence Day and unlike some, I actually care about what that means.

I do not deny that America is becoming increasingly focused on instant gratification but then, so is a large part of the rest of the world. At the same time, I think it is highly inaccurate to characterize the American way as one which rips the culture, history, and philosophy from anything and everything with the single-minded desire to profit from it. Besides, your profile says that you live in America. Are you the only cultured person in America? From the way you insult America throughout your post, I get the feeling you don’t think anyone but yourself has an appreciation for history or culture.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla I am already bored with the MMA. Maybe that is why I don't crawl over the martial arts fence and join ranks. I find nothing there that challenges my intellect. I find no religion, I find nothing deeply cultural to grab ahold of, so it bores me to death. Watching a fight stimulates the emotions, but turning up the volume on a new pop song can have a similar effect. I am not alive to be stimulated only emotionally. I need deeper stuff to latch on to, and the MMA is not deep, therefore, to me it is boring.	”

Considering the amount of effort you’ve spent in disparaging MMA, I think your first sentence should probably have said “I am already threatened by MMA,” instead. However, if you expect to find nothing cultural in MMA, no religious leanings, then I can only point out, again, that MMA is not about the dissemination of culture or religion… it is a sport.

Having said that, many things are also defined by what you bring to them. If you expect to find cultural interest in MMA, you might find some interesting contrasts between Japanese society, Brazilian society, and American society, all of which (and more) were involved in the development of MMA in the US as it exists today. Still, the point of MMA is not to promote culture. It is a sport.

Along the same lines, if you want to find philosophy in boxing, it’s there in many of the same ways as you might find it in Iaido. What I mean is that in some sense, the journey to the philosophical enlightenment you keep talking about is due to a step you take, not a distance someone carries you. Just because it isn’t an overt, standardized teaching of a particular discipline doesn’t mean you can’t derive a lesson from it.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla There are much better things to do with my time. Like study history, philosophy, religion, and culture.....	”

Like making pretentious posts on message boards and attempting to make yourself appear taller by telling everyone else to sit down?

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla ...anyone who would claim that warfare and martial arts do not have any cultural mixture, does not know the history of the ancient martial arts. The Jujutsu of the Samarai, the Kung Fu of the Shaolin monks. Fuedal Japan and the Samarai, the Chinese government calling upon the Shaolin Temple to turn the tide of battle in their favor... Each has a history of being mixed with warfare. Each is also a self-defense system. Each also has history, politics, philosophy, and cultural aspects. In history, they are glued togehter, they are only separate here in the states, where people can be "anti-war-protestors" yet still practice the martial arts... sort of an ironay, isn't it?	”

If you’re going to talk about martial arts in the US, then you should also, for the sake of accuracy and comprehensiveness, acknowledge that martial arts throughout the US and the rest of the world are defined in a multitude of ways. In most cultures, those activities known a martial arts are made up of arts that seek to preserve teachings for historical reasons, those which pride themselves on street applicability and modernism, those that are sportive, those that are health focused, arts that include several of the preceding categories and beyond, and some that are more representative of gymnastics than fighting.

Having said that, your suggestion that it is only in the US that one can practice a marital art without subscribing to the philosophies and culture of koryu, I can tell you, from experience, that is false. Even in Japan (shock!) you will find people practicing martial arts for purposes that have nothing to do with their formative culture or philosophy. You will, of course, find the opposite as well. I have been there, I have trained there, so I’m not giving you this as an opinion I read from an article in someone’s blog.

Back to the first sentence in your last statement, these are the same by definition, so I’m not sure who would disagree with that. If you had used the term, “Martial way,” I might disagree with you.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla I am not "anti-MMA" (completely) because I know it has it's place in history, and it has a definite place in capitalistic entertainment. We shouldn't forget that the UFC fights are promoted to make money, that is really the bottom line, and part of their propaganda is the claim that they have proven classical martial arts training is useless. (blah-blah-blah) It's all part of the "McDonald's Cheeseburger" approach to the martial arts of the UFC. It has it's place, it does many things, but in now way is it an "end-all" or substitue for classical martial arts training.	”

What, exactly, is your problem with MMA making money? Fighters need time to train in order to fight. If they can be compensated, they can spend more time training and make it a job instead of a hobby. Is there something wrong with someone being paid to do a job? MMA promoters must make money in order to pay fighters, to stage MMA events, and to make money themselves. It’s a sport.

As for MMA propaganda that says TMA is useless, I’ll point you back to my earlier statement that TMA strategies in the context of the MMA sport have proven ineffective in the same way that MMA strategies would likely prove ineffective in another sport. That doesn’t mean either of them is worthless.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla I do not dispute that UFC fighting has pointed to the best one-on-one of streamlined techniques, stripped of all philosophy, culture, and history. It's a great way to sell tickets. It's also a great way to ruin thousands of years of cultural world history, if people were to swallow the whole unchewable UFC pill. Nothing will ever replace the artistic achievements of traditional martial arts. You can not slide in 20 years of octagon fighting to replace the centuries of historical study of culture, philosophy, and religious beliefs. I have no problem with any man or woman saying that they choose to NOT study history, philosophy or religion, but please don't try to tell folks their way is the only way. There are many ways.	”

Again, MMA is not trying to replace TMA, nor are practitioners of MMA saying that their way is the only way. In fact, most MMA proponents openly acknowledge that MMA is not for everyone. Further, there really is no “one size fits all.” The ancient martial traditions you value so highly are not for everyone either, no matter how much you want them to be. Some people will appreciate the history and philosophy that may accompany TMA training in some schools, and some may not. That doesn’t make the former enlightened martial deities and the latter knuckle dragging, uncultured cretins. So again I say – MMA is not attempting to supplant TMA nor is it claiming to provide philosophical, religious, historical, or moral lessons. It is a sport.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla On top of just buying a gun, there are also many schools across the nation that can train you on how to use the weapons you buy. Reputibale organzations that will train you in a safe environment to learn how to put firepower downrange on an enemy target. In America, this training is open to law enforcement officers, and civilians alike. In my own personal philosophy, it is an extension of my martial ability.	”

That doesn’t mean that most gun owners have taken advantage of what these organizations offer. In the same way you miscategorized MMA fans as a bunch of beer drinking idiots who only want to see blood and guts, I could incorrectly generalize gun owners in the same manner. Certainly, one common perception is that gun owners are largely criminals, hunters, or lowbrow rednecks. Fair? No. Popular misconception? Yes. Back to your original statement about training in the responsible use of firearms…

There is no philosophy, tradition of responsibility, or specific use (e.g. it must be used ONLY as an instrument of warfare) inherent in a firearm. It is simply a tool that may be used for various purposes, such as hunting, combat, skeet shooting and so on. If you choose to make it a part of your martial philosophy then great. MMA can be seen in the same light. While it is not intended to be philosophical, spiritual, or for use in practical street situations, it is up to the practitioner to decide what lessons he or she will derive from it and how it will be used.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla My point, and the topic here is this: Martial Arts + Weapons + Guns + Survival (+ a lot more) = Total Self-defense.	”

Early in your post, you began deriding MMA for not upholding the tenets and practices you feel are part of self-defense or martial arts. By the definition you provided above, it seems that in order for the sport of MMA to meet your personal definition of self defense, its rules would need to be adapted to allow for the use of firearms, weapons (not sure how this is different from guns, but anyway), wilderness survival, and martial arts. Gotta love the catch all “+ a lot more,” lol.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla Self-defense is a VERY wide topic, and it can no way be limited to an octagon, a dojo, a kwoon, a bootcamp, or any one thing.	”

You admit that even TMA cannot contain all the aspects of your personal definition of self defense, and yet you disparage MMA for not doing so. Great.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla As I said earlier in this thread, self-defense comes to us first through nature. As our cells connect and multiply, they must survive from day one. But I guess you would have to settle down long enought to learn some basic biology or anatomy to learn these things. If you cast out all educational benefits to life, you might just die a fool.	”

Actually, biology shows us that cells are constantly dying and being replaced from day one, not that a cell survives. To a point, the number of cells growing is greater than the number of cells dying, and the organism as a whole grows. If you want to draw an analogy, this can be likened to the Japanese concept of kaizen in some ways (in other ways, the analogy is not so directly applicable). In any case, this is a much different lesson than cells connect, multiply, and survive, which is not entirely accurate. But I guess you have to settle down long enough to learn these things… or you might just die a fool.

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla Just keeping a clean house, free from clutter and bacteria is one form of self-defense. You don't learn house keeping in the octagon, dojo, or kwoon (however, you might pull KP in the Marines.. ha).	”

Maybe this wasn’t taught where you trained, but it was ingrained where I trained. As we increased in belt rank, our responsibility for the upkeep of our place of training increased. We were expected to sweep, clean mats, disinfect common areas, take out trash, and so on. Additionally, a clutter free, clean environment is central to some of the religions that influence many martial arts and that influence can even be seen in their cultures, the Japanese business principle of 5S, for example (seiri, seiton, seisou, seiketsu, ****suuke or separate, standardize, scrub, systemize, self discipline).

“	Originally Posted By: FightingGorilla To the braggert, and the boaster, MMA is ideal, but for a deeper approach to life in general, it is actually completely boring.	”

Take this as you will, but you’ve really come across in your post as the braggart and boaster you mention above. Your diatribe is full of examples of you lamenting the lack of culture, knowledge, and enlightment in others, side by side with attempts to convince us of your own evolved state and superior knowledge. I think the people on here as well as the MMA community have more depth and breadth than you give them credit for. Unfortunately for you, that doesn’t impact them in the least – it only deprives you of what could be valuable insights.

Good lord that's a long post.

Sorry, guys!

you know what???

I'm NOT going to read this...

@ the modsquad: keep your eyes open and enjoy guys!!!

I'll have a beer


Chief108

__________________

“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka