You are! No, YOU are! Yeah? Well...

So, in reply to this:

“	Originally Posted By: Fu-Pau Seriously though Unk, at times your put downs of everyone with a different political POV ...	”

I asked for some clarification. So far all I've gotten are references to public figures well known for their extreme partisan views, that's hardly "everyone." I await further clarification.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Ok then, I'll give it a go, although I don't think we should have to go through this process:

SWK: "I'd seriously like to see another democratic superpower in the world to moderate the US influence - I don't care if it's Europe, (it's not likely to be anyone else).”

Unk: "The US is not some enemy that Europe needs to block or contain. The US is the best thing that ever happened to Europe. A virtual gaurantee of military and economic stability, and the ultimate refugee pressure relief valve. If a few trade deals and the odd military base here and there are the only price for all that, y'all should count your blessings and shut yer pie holes."

Yo Blair!! I felt that this was a pretty poor response - are we to assume that we are simply your *****es now?

j100: "I view the whole Iraq thing as an out and out admission the US can no longer afford to even pretend to cope with international competition in an open market - a renouncing of even the pretence of belief in free market democracy..”

Unk: "I'm sure you 'view' it in all sorts of ways that fit your political bias."

I appreciate that J100 is speaking his mind, but then you criticise him for doing so. You're only speaking yours too I guess, but it seems designed to provoke ridicule rather than simply offer your own opinions.

"Why are all the poorest schools predominantly black?
Would they still be digging bodies up in New Orleans if the tragedy had happened in Beverly Hills insteade of poor black neighborhoods?”

Unk "Are you really so innocent of economics, history, geography, and demographics or was that a hypothetical question?"

Maybe he is, but why not repudiate his view with some of those facts, rather than ridicule?

FF "Is there a day of reckoning on the horizon for the USA?"

Unk "I think that what is really telling is how eager, how excited, so many who are reading this are at that very prospect. There are plenty of folks just hopping and clapping their hands in glee at the idea of anything bad or humbling happening to the US."

There was also one specific instance I was trying to find where we were talking about World War 2 and you implied that the US saved us (the UK) because we sat on our hands. I felt that considering the fact that Britain was flattened during WW2, and more importantly the fact that large numbers of our civilians died, that comment was in pretty poor taste. Yes, without the US intervention, we would be in a different world now - still, we should show respect for the dead. My grandfather's job was picking up the bits of bodies that fell on to the airfields during the dogfights over the UK.

The arguments on DL aren't the most eloquent or well informed. Personally, I don't have a problem with you expressing opposing views, but I feel given your considerable knowledge and intellect that you could nurture more interesting debates if you didn't simply slap down people whose views don't coincide with your own. If you have opposing views, then get em out and teach us the error of our ways.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung Ok then, I'll give it a go, although I don't think we should have to go through this process: SWK: "I'd seriously like to see another democratic superpower in the world to moderate the US influence - I don't care if it's Europe, (it's not likely to be anyone else).” Unk: "The US is not some enemy that Europe needs to block or contain. The US is the best thing that ever happened to Europe. A virtual gaurantee of military and economic stability, and the ultimate refugee pressure relief valve. If a few trade deals and the odd military base here and there are the only price for all that, y'all should count your blessings and shut yer pie holes." Yo Blair!! I felt that this was a pretty poor response - are we to assume that we are simply your *****es now? .	”

No where did I use the term "*****es," that is your interpretation. I gave my view of the current and historical relationship between Europe and America as I see it in response to a comment whose implications would do as much or more harm to Europe, in my estimation, than to America in any case. This seems like a case of you can have your say but begrudge me mine.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung j100: "I view the whole Iraq thing as an out and out admission the US can no longer afford to even pretend to cope with international competition in an open market - a renouncing of even the pretence of belief in free market democracy..” Unk: "I'm sure you 'view' it in all sorts of ways that fit your political bias." I appreciate that J100 is speaking his mind, but then you criticise him for doing so. You're only speaking yours too I guess, but it seems designed to provoke ridicule rather than simply offer your own opinions. .	”

You flat-out admit that I am just speaking my mind, but still somehow find fault with me for pointing out the obvious political bias behind the remarks in quesiton (I trust you will not challenge the fact that they are biased?). I note that my comments were simply pointing out an obvious fact (that there was political bias behind said remarks) and that I did not denigrate anyone's country in doing so.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung "Why are all the poorest schools predominantly black? Would they still be digging bodies up in New Orleans if the tragedy had happened in Beverly Hills insteade of poor black neighborhoods?” Unk "Are you really so innocent of economics, history, geography, and demographics or was that a hypothetical question?" Maybe he is, but why not repudiate his view with some of those facts, rather than ridicule?.	”

I'm sure you understand the use of hypothetical questions.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung FF "Is there a day of reckoning on the horizon for the USA?" Unk "I think that what is really telling is how eager, how excited, so many who are reading this are at that very prospect. There are plenty of folks just hopping and clapping their hands in glee at the idea of anything bad or humbling happening to the US." .	”

Do you deny that there are those here who would take pleasure in seeing the US humbled? You quoted yourself saying as much in your own previous post. Again, I am somehow being unkind by pointing out the obvious, but those who make sweeping declarations about the very character of my country and our leaders are just "speaking their minds." Come on now.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung There was also one specific instance I was trying to find where we were talking about World War 2 and you implied that the US saved us (the UK) because we sat on our hands. I felt that considering the fact that Britain was flattened during WW2, and more importantly the fact that large numbers of our civilians died, that comment was in pretty poor taste. Yes, without the US intervention, we would be in a different world now - still, we should show respect for the dead. My grandfather's job was picking up the bits of bodies that fell on to the airfields during the dogfights over the UK. .	”

You can't logically attribute remarks to me that you cannot verify and then hold me accountable for them. Doesn't work that way and you know it.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung The arguments on DL aren't the most eloquent or well informed. Personally, I don't have a problem with you expressing opposing views, but I feel given your considerable knowledge and intellect that you could nurture more interesting debates if you didn't simply slap down people whose views don't coincide with your own. If you have opposing views, then get em out and teach us the error of our ways.	”

I thank you for your kind remarks and the spirit in which they were given.

That having been said,

Seems to me that my biggest crime in the eyes of some is simply not seeing things the way you do. Well, sorry but that's just how it is. I won't insult you by saying you only hold your views because some big liberal cabal is brainwashing you or that you are just ignorant and uninformed or that you are a tool for dark liberal powers pulling your strings from the shadows. You just disagree with me. I get that. I try not to make irrational equivalencies and unfair generalizations about your country and its leadership and if we all do the same we should all be able to express ourselves just fine.

As for "slapping people down," the only people being slapped by me are public figures with obvious agendas or obvious mental issues. I can't believe that my pointing out the fact that Chavez, who is the biggest mental case to come down the pike in a long while, is in fact a psycho is seen as "putting everyone down" who disagrees with me, but the constant, mean-spirited, spiteful, and frankly unimaginative insults hurled with great regularity against the President of the United States are just "expressing his opinions." Yeah, ok. Perspective? Ah, don't worry about it when there's an ax to grind.

I'll admit that I cannot and will not take seriously folks who so completely divorce themselves from reality that rational discussion becomes impossible. Purely hypothetical example: It is one thing to debate whether or not tax on gasoline should be raised or lowered to either protect the environment or stimulate the economy, but when someone jumps in to such a discussion with "the real problem is that the government is hiding the secret alien propulsion systems that could free us from energy dependency forever!" there's really nothing left to say. If that's unfair of me, so be it. I'm not saying you fall into such a category, I'm just pointing out that aspect of my general attitude toward such thinking.

In sum, I see no evidence whatsoever to support the original accusation of me "putting down everyone with a different political POV."

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: Unk This seems like a case of you can have your say but begrudge me mine.	”

I don't begrudge you your point of view at all. I don't think we should have to get into a piecemeal discussion of your posting history to justify why some people feel you have a tendency to ridicule their opinions (generally those of a left wing variety). You asked for examples, and these are the only ones I could find in the time I could be bothered to allocate to this fruitless pursuit. I don't particularly wish for this debate to take place in public, but you asked so I'm indulging you.

Simply put, you are free to express your point of view as you wish, and ridicule other posters points of view if you wish. It will simply incur a particular response, the one you have witnessed that cause you to start this thread. That in itself should be the evidence you are looking for.

This seems to be an odd way to behave for someone who started a thread a while back stating how non-US citizens should handle discussions about the US more diplomatically.

“	Originally Posted By: Unk You flat-out admit that I am just speaking my mind, but still somehow find fault with me for pointing out the obvious political bias behind the remarks in quesiton (I trust you will not challenge the fact that they are biased?). I note that my comments were simply pointing out an obvious fact (that there was political bias behind said remarks) and that I did not denigrate anyone's country in doing so.	”

I know Unk, I know - the point is that rather than respond with some information, or some comments that could constructively refute J100's point, you're just sarcastic. This is why I chose this quote.

“	Originally Posted By: Unk Do you deny that there are those here who would take pleasure in seeing the US humbled?	”

Again, no, this isn't the point I'm trying to make. That might be the case, but isn't the point of this discussion.

“	Originally Posted By: Unk You can't logically attribute remarks to me that you cannot verify and then hold me accountable for them. Doesn't work that way and you know it.	”

True, but if I do find that quote I'll be sure to post it. Still, since I know (and I think you know) it's a comment you made, I think it sucked.

“	Originally Posted By: Unk Seems to me that my biggest crime in the eyes of some is simply not seeing things the way you do.	”

It's not about that at all - it's your refusal to engage with a counter argument! It would just be interesting to hear the way you see things more often as opposed to simply displaying your evident disgruntlement about the way someone else sees things. It's below you dude!!!

Ah well, let's hope the server crashes and deletes this embarassing discussion.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

Wow… a comment of mine was deemed worthy of a thread of its own… I must have hit the DL big time!

This may be the first time that I have contributed to anything that has formed the genesis of something else… oh… no, hang on, there is my son… I am responsible for that one as well…

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung Ah well, let's hope the server crashes and deletes this embarassing discussion.	”

Don't be embarrassed.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung I don't particularly wish for this debate to take place in public, but you asked so I'm indulging you. .	”

Actually, I didn't ask you. This conversation was between me and fu-pau (and then somehow wingnut)

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung True, but if I do find that quote I'll be sure to post it. Still, since I know (and I think you know) it's a comment you made, I think it sucked..	”

Until and unless you do find it I'll thank you to stop drawing conclusions from something I cannot defend and/or clarify.

“	Originally Posted By: SunWuKung It's not about that at all - it's your refusal to engage with a counter argument! .	”

If you don't find my style of communication comfortable, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to offend you, I'm not simply repeating annoying catch-phrases, I'm not "putting down everyone with a different POV." If I directly and intentionally insult you personally I'll apologize and try not to do it again, but until then...

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare Actually, I didn't ask you. This conversation was between me and fu-pau (and then somehow wingnut)	”

So why didn't you PM fu-pau/Wingnut instead of starting a whole thread!?

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare If you don't find my style of communication comfortable, I'm sorry.	”

It's not your style of communication I'm taking issue with (and remember you asked for examples). It's your refusal to communicate that can sometimes be frustrating.

Look, it's not about having an opposite POV. Last year, Webmaster kicked my ass in a debate about the death sentence in the US. I didn't agree with it, but it was a solid rebuttal and made me understand the reasons underpinning the existence of the death sentence better than I did before.

It's not even insulting! You asked for clarification of the alleged "put downs" and I've just tried to dig up a random selection. It's hardly as if I'm a model poster either eh?

It's no biggie Unk, you're well liked (hence your considerable rep). I just hope you can take more time in future to illustrate your POV with greater clarity, since I have a suspicion that it would bring a lot to the party.
l8r

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

unk : "I asked for some clarification. So far all I've gotten are references to public figures well known for their extreme partisan views, that's hardly "everyone." I await further clarification."

such a short memeroy

at times a childish tendancy for deliberate forgetfulness just for the sake of argument

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

I suggest a PVP bounty vendetta on "Hero", the online game: http://hero.netgame.com

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

Well fellas, y'all better send me a PM for now if you want to continue this.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Unk did not close this, I did. I've asked Unk to continue this through PM. Thanks for understanding.

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