Judo vs. Jujitsu

Take away the variables of the individual practitioner and only look at techniques.

Jujitsu was the original, and Judo is the reconstructed sport version. With that in mind, which art offers the most modern day use? Does the smaller arsenal of Judo produce a more focused player? Does the robust arsenal of Jujitsu give the player more weapons and versatility?

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

Depends on the situation. I think they have diverged so much over the years.

Judo's focus on the standing throws and base is incredible. For my money those guys and girls know how to put you on the ground.

Jiu-Jitsu, specifically Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has taken on a life of it's own and their focus on ground game is truly exceptional.

If I had unlimited time, money, and a body that healed instantly, I'd do both. Since I don't and I'm not getting any younger, BJJ is a safer and practical alternative to getting tossed around all day

-hz

The history channel just did a judo segment in it's Human Weapon series.
Judo history ; master moves

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Which your's truly commented on in the Human Weapon thread...

-hz

Heck, I'll play:

My money is on Judo, if we are comparing Judo to the Brazilian form of JJ. I have taken both, and still do Judo. I occassionally roll with some of my buddies who are BJJ students. You have to hand it to BJJ'ers, though. They have skill, on the ground. Judo guys have it, as well, plus more. If the question is what has more uses for today, I will definitely go with Judo, still. We are talking about how the art applies to the self defense of the day, yes? The original JJ, as it was in Japan, encompassed throws, locks, strikes, and defensive techniques. Brazilian Jujitsu involves mainly ground techniques. The school I attended rarely went over take downs or throws, and if any striking was incorporated, it was in the MMA classes held there once or twice a week, yet, strikes wasn't in the BJJ curriculum. Judo has a better "across the board" score, in my opinion. Throws, (nagewaza), groundwork, (newaza), and even strikes, (atemiwaza): Judo has it all. I should say that I have seen more and more Judoka Dojos neglecting the teaching of atemiwaza, but there are still plenty out there that does. Generally, a Judo school whose main focus is competition, tend to put more emphasis on throws and things vital to winning tournaments.

I think in another thread, the effectiveness of a Judo throw was discussed a little. I stand by the sentiment that a well-executed throw will end a fight quicker than many things. And, most people arent trained how to fall, friends.That's my opinion...

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Man for Sale: House-broken, current vaccinations, almost never humps your leg.

Not to mention most people who are "trained" to fall aren't necessarilly trained to fall. One thing I have always mentioned to people with regards to falling and martials arts is that the safe fall techniques will more likely than not save your life instead of your deadly fighting skills.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

Are we talking traditional Japanese jujutsu or BJJ?

Traditional JJJ also covered a multitude of weapons.

If we are comparing BJJ to judo there is some hard evidence to consider... BJJ blue belts beat judo black belts 90% of the time. Granted, now that BJJ has become popular more judo schools are focusing more on newaza so the disparity has probably lessened over the past 10 years or so.

In the MMA fight between Royce and Yoshida... Royce, not even a top level BJJer ... Yoshida, Olympic gold medalist in judo. Royce, 175 lbs. Yoshida, 225 lbs. Royce walked the dog on him.

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Are we talking traditional Japanese jujutsu or BJJ? Traditional JJJ also covered a multitude of weapons. If we are comparing BJJ to judo there is some hard evidence to consider... BJJ blue belts beat judo black belts 90% of the time. Granted, now that BJJ has become popular more judo schools are focusing more on newaza so the disparity has probably lessened over the past 10 years or so. In the MMA fight between Royce and Yoshida... Royce, not even a top level BJJer ... Yoshida, Olympic gold medalist in judo. Royce, 175 lbs. Yoshida, 225 lbs. Royce walked the dog on him.	”

I am not sure which we are comparing, but I compared both. Judo came from jujitsu, developed by Jigaro Kano in the late 1800s. His art was designed to allow students to be able to practice safer, and more frequently, as it was quite normal for JJ students to be injured often, cutting down on training time due to the time it spent for them to convalesce. Now, keeping with what Cam said, Kano himself said that since the emphasis on his style of JJ (Judo) was on getting a throw, groundwork became neglected, and was weaker in that style. However, there was held, in the late 1800s, a tournament at the Tokyo police headquarters, between a Judoka and a JJ practitioner. Judo won handily, and became the official MA of Japanese police. In fact, my nephew, (Japanese), is a policeman in Tokyo, and his cadet training focused a great deal on Judo.

Is the tournament's outcome say hands-down that Judo is "superior" than JJ? Don't know, but it shows again that generally, a pure grappler has an edge on a pure striker. The contest went down-hill for the JJ practitioner when he engaged the Judoka in a clinch, which got him thrown on his head. The clinch is important, b/c a large majority of fights come to this. Look at boxing, clinches are very common in a fight with strikes. This is where a skilled grappler can turn the odds in favor of himself.

I must agree, albeit begrudgingly, that yes, alot of blue belt BJJers can hand a Judoka's ass to them in terms of groundwork. And, as you mentioned, I think this is less and less common as more Judo schools are trying to focus more on newaza as part of the overall curriculum. You cannot deny grappling's superiority in the last couple of decades with the proof of PRide/UFC. Judo has to conform, a little, and is starting to.

It is interesting, if we get down to it, the comparison of the two. If you think about it, Judo is not really a seperate art from (Japanese) Jujitsu, it is another version of the same art. It came from JJ, and was actually a blend of Jikishin-Ryu, Kito-Ryu, and Fusen-Ryu Judo, (all founded by jujitsu masters who started another form of JJ, and who all three called Judo) the latter added to incorporate the groundwork that Kano saw missing from his style (Kodokan) of Judo, which is Judo as we all know it today. Also, the large majority of Judo schools in the US teach out the Olympic Format, which may be a limiting factor. However, BJJ sprung from Judo newaza, taught to the Grace family by Mitsuyo Maeda in 1904. The form of Judo competition that focuses mainly on groundwork, and the victor is decided by submission, is called Kosen Judo, it is still practiced in Japan, and this is basically the heart of BJJ.

And, if we are talking about Gracies, what about Kimura vs. Helio Gracie? Judo won in that one. Finished Helio with "ude garami" or what BJJers call the Kimura, in his honor. I also came across this interview with Helio in which he stated that he almost lost in the first bit of the fight due to a choke applied to him by Kimura. Helio refused to tap, and right before he fully passed out, Kimura gave up and moved onto another submission attempt. Pretty cool, in the interview, Rorion is his translator, and even he is suprised at this bit of news. Adios.

-Wu

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Man for Sale: House-broken, current vaccinations, almost never humps your leg.

Here's another question, for what its worth:

How long would it take a very good judoka to become very good at BJJ vs. how long it would take a very good BJJer to become very good at Judo? And what are the implications of the answer?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare Here's another question, for what its worth: How long would it take a very good judoka to become very good at BJJ vs. how long it would take a very good BJJer to become very good at Judo? And what are the implications of the answer?	”

Nice one, Unk. Here's that saying again: One year for newaza (ground technique), TEN YEARS for nagewaza (Throwing technique)

That is often said in Judo circles, and states clearly the point that perfecting the throwing techniques is more time consuming and needs alot of attention compared with that of ground technique. I would like to think it implies Judo's superiorty over BJJ, but that is b/c I am biased, to say the least.

-Wu

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Man for Sale: House-broken, current vaccinations, almost never humps your leg.

I guess I'll be able to put this to the test later this year. I've got a brother in law who is a Judoka, rather accomplished at that. He wants to have a little sparring contest, Newaza included.

I don't hold much chance in the throwing game, but I like my odds on the ground.

I'll let you know.

-hz

“	Originally Posted By: hazmat I guess I'll be able to put this to the test later this year. I've got a brother in law who is a Judoka, rather accomplished at that. He wants to have a little sparring contest, Newaza included. I don't hold much chance in the throwing game, but I like my odds on the ground. I'll let you know. -hz	”

Heck yeah, Haz. Give us a blow by blow. We look forward to your report. I have a couple of buddies who are BJJ guys, one of them is a white belt, about to be blue, the other got his blue a year ago. The white belt I can control pretty well on the ground, the blue, its a little more evenly matched. Of course, I, myself got near blue in BJJ, have about 2 years training in it, so that may be the reason why, not b/c of anything else. I have been doing Judo now for about a year, albeit off and on b/c of money situations. I enjoy Judo more. I like the throws. I would be lying, though, if I said that I do not use some of the ground work I learned in my BJJ class to spar with the higher degree Judoka. I am stronger than most, but my technique is no match in the long run, so I am not a champ by a long shot there. Maybe if there is another meetup near my neck of the woods, we can all trade some knowledge. That would be most welcome. Again, keep us up to date on the upcoming "Battle Royale:Family Style", Haz!

-Wu

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Man for Sale: House-broken, current vaccinations, almost never humps your leg.

“	However, there was held, in the late 1800s, a tournament at the Tokyo police headquarters, between a Judoka and a JJ practitioner. Judo won handily, and became the official MA of Japanese police. In fact, my nephew, (Japanese), is a policeman in Tokyo, and his cadet training focused a great deal on Judo.	”

That is an interesting point... the combat art vs. the sport art and the sport art wins. This is just one example of the doctrine I have been preaching for years.
The interesting point of BJJ vs. judo is that many judokas train with the intention of getting points in the SPORT of judo. BJJ intends to finish fights. Many judoka are/were under the impression that a throw would end a fight automatically because the tournament rules award a win for a throw where the opponent lands flat on their back (ippon). BJJ took that to another level realizing that the fight does not always end there, but actually has just begun once the fight hit the mat.

“	The form of Judo competition that focuses mainly on groundwork, and the victor is decided by submission, is called Kosen Judo, it is still practiced in Japan, and this is basically the heart of BJJ.	”

If I am not mistaken, Kimura was kosen practitioner... I have a bootleg video of some Kosen stuff and Kimura is mentioned heavily on there.

“	And, if we are talking about Gracies, what about Kimura vs. Helio Gracie? Judo won in that one. Finished Helio with "ude garami" or what BJJers call the Kimura, in his honor. I also came across this interview with Helio in which he stated that he almost lost in the first bit of the fight due to a choke applied to him by Kimura. Helio refused to tap, and right before he fully passed out, Kimura gave up and moved onto another submission attempt. Pretty cool, in the interview, Rorion is his translator, and even he is suprised at this bit of news. Adios.	”

Yep, but that is only half the story...
Keep in mind Kimura was over 230 lbs. and Helio was around 130 lbs. It was stated before the match that if Helio lastred longer than 3 minutes he would be declared the victor. The fight lasted 13 minutes and Helio still did not tap, his brother threw in the towel. Did Helio lose? Yes, I'm not making excuses or amends to make it look like a veiled victory for Helio, just making some points. After the match Kimura invited Helio to Japan to teach newaza at the Japanese academy. Kimura was so impressed with Helio's technique because he had defeated much larger men in much easier fashion and Helio lasted as long as he did. Of course since then, BJJ has evolved into a different entitiy than what it was then while judo has remained relatively the same.

Most of the submission and positions found in BJJ are also in judo. What judo lacks is the focus of intent. They primarily train the throws because thet's where the points are. The groundwork is there in judo it is just often neglected by the practitioners in favor of the throwing. WHat judo lacks is the many transitional phases that are found in BJJ. BJJ "invented" these over the past 60 or so years due to the focus of the intent of training (newaza). If judo had had the same focus on the newaza over the past 70 years or so I am sure that judo practitioners would have come up with the same or very similar transitional phases. But it's those transitions that the judoka are caught completely off guard with when going against BJJ guys. For example, judo doesn't have very many sophicticated guard passes... BJJ has many. Judo has very little in a half guard game while BJJ has an entire curriculum built around a half guard that includes passes, sweeps and submissions.

“	How long would it take a very good judoka to become very good at BJJ vs. how long it would take a very good BJJer to become very good at Judo? And what are the implications of the answer?	”

Hmmm... that depends.... do you mean the art of judo or the sport of judo? In the sport of judo I have seen blue belts regularly beat black belts. I have some students that used to be part of a combat judo school and they trained a lot of newaza. They would simply shoot a double leg, pass guard immediately and then tap the guy before the ground time limit was up. They basically exploited the weaknesses of judo and the primary focus of sport judo.

If it was simply a pure throwing contest, the BJJ guys gets owned every time.

As far as arts, judo should contain everything that BJJ does, and vice versa... the difference is that BJJ evolved because of its focus so it has more breadth in the newaza range. Considering everything equal and both in a vacuum, I would say it would take a little longer for a judo black belt to reach black belt in BJJ than for a BJJ black belt to reach black belt in judo. In judo it is normal to reach black belt in 3-5 years. In BJJ average time is 7-10 years.

“	Nice one, Unk. Here's that saying again: One year for newaza (ground technique), TEN YEARS for nagewaza (Throwing technique) That is often said in Judo circles, and states clearly the point that perfecting the throwing techniques is more time consuming and needs alot of attention compared with that of ground technique. I would like to think it implies Judo's superiorty over BJJ, but that is b/c I am biased, to say the least.	”

Actually, it is more a glimpse into why judo falls so short in newaza... if they think only a year is good enough to develop newaza. Average time to achieve a blue belt in BJJ is 2 years and that's just first belt up from white. Again, judo black belt 3-5 years... BJJ black belt, 7-10 years.
Granted, there are different levels of throwing skills and not all judo black belts are created equal. A 10 year judo black belt will be much better and have much better balance and sensitivity than a 5 year judo black belt, all other things considered equal. But that "1 year for newaza" standard is great insight into why judo never developed a sophisticated groundfighting level or standard like BJJ did.

“	I guess I'll be able to put this to the test later this year. I've got a brother in law who is a Judoka, rather accomplished at that. He wants to have a little sparring contest, Newaza included.	”

Well, it would have only been fair 15 years ago. As myself and Wu have stated many judo schools have shifted more focus on newaza with the proliferation of BJJ. You have to wonder about his training... does he have a good focus on newaza? Did he always? Or did the focus of his training change significantly with the popularity of BJJ? It's a fact that a great percentage of judo schools and judoka owe a great debt to BJJ for furthering their newaza.

“	I don't hold much chance in the throwing game, but I like my odds on the ground.	”

Pull guard. In my first BJJ match ever (I had been training 3 or 4 months in a barn with some friends and a few video tapes) I went against a national champ judo black belt. The match was 10 minutes and I immediately pulled guard and almost got 2 armbars and a sweep. At about the 8 minute mark I gassed and he passed my guard and I rolled over to my stomach and he tapped me with a camel clutch... yes, I tapped to a camel clutch. I have no idea why he didn't go for a rear naked choke or any of numerous gi chokes from there but he sat on my back and cupped his hands under my chin and cranked my neck backwards. It was embarassing... I have not tapped to or been caught in a camel clutch since then!!!!

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

As an addendum...

There is a reason that many arts are as developed in their area of expertise as they are... and that is focus of intent.

As for the "go to" styles for ranges we have-

Wrestling- takedowns and control
Judo- takedowns
BJJ- control and submission
Muay Thai- striking an kicking especially
Boxing- Punching skills
Sambo- leglocks

These arts developed their "specialties" because of focus and also because of limitation. Judo rules dictated that a throw directly on the back would win a match. Also, once on the ground there is a 30 second time limit or a pin. This negated the use for a well developed ground game and emphasized throwing. That's why they are the best at it.

Wrestling once had submissions but because equal skill caused long matches to be boring they invented fake wrestling to sell tickets. All the while real wrestling started to focus on the control and the pin awarding points for takedowns and control and a win for the pin. That is why they are the best at it.

Judo and Sambo are basically the same sport except Judo allows chokes and armbars and disallows leglocks. Sambo allows leglocks and armbars but disallows chokes. This is why Sambo has a well developed leglocking game.

Muay Thai allows the clinch but disallows the takedown to groundfighting so no need to develop a groundfighting game. The striking was very well developed.

Boxing said no takedowns, groundfighting and no kicking so they spent all their time and focus on simply punching offense and defense. This is why boxing punching skill are leagues ahead of the rest, even Muay Thai.

Notice all these arts have sporting elements. This is why the have developed so greatly because they are constantly being litmus tested and evolved into the highest form of sophistication as far as their individual focus.

Though the arts/styles listed above are the main ones that tend to be the "go to" styles for professional fighters (people who put food on their table with their fighting skills) there are exceptions. I got my kicking from TKD, not Muay Thai. I have never trained Muay Thai. Of course my stand up looks a lot like MT in a lot of instances, it's just the application of good principles. Also, the trappling skills of Wing Chun can be a good skill to have when in the clinch or defending the ground and pound while on the ground. Very few people train in that style. While most traditional martial arts do not offer any specific technical skills in any specific range that are better or even close to the ones mentioned above, they do contain valuable training methods that develop strength, coordination, flexibility, speed, etc. While sport arts are the best for technical skills, traditional arts are very well suited to develop attributal skills.

Sadly, when skills are developed in a vacuum they can be exploited by the ranges they neglect. It all comes down to percentages of success rate and what is more likely to happen. This is why things are as they are and is great food for thought.

Sorry to have gotten so far off topic. It just made me think about why there is a huge disparity in the skillsets between BJJ and judo and that got me to thinking why there is such a huge disparity of skillsets between striking arts vs. grappling arts and sporting arts vs. so called combat arts. The disparity is because of intent and focus. I have never seen an art that was touted as a "combat art" that was in any fashion worthwhile if it did not have a sporting aspect. It seems the intent of these types of arts are to theorize and exclaim how deadly they are while the sport arts are actually applying what they do. Without sporting competition there is no litmus test and no evolution... If something doesn't work you don't find out until the s**t has hit the fan, and then it's too late.

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Wow, you know, this has really turned into a VERY informative thread. Thanks guys!

My brother in law is quite accomplished at throws, but admits his Newaza is poor. He's more interested in learning from my BJJ background than a "true competition". But, like all things manly, I'm sure they'll be a good sparring match and guard will be pulled. Even more interesting on Judo's lack of 1/2 guard techniques, perhaps I'll look for 1/2 guard options and potentially De La Riva stuff. (Love the De La Riva Guard!)

Thanks Cam, I'll watch for the Camel Clutch!


-hz