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Old March 19th, 2008, 01:11 PM
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Regrets - he's got none

but then again, his pals got rich...

The world is a better place for the Iraq War, says President Bush - Times Online

President Bush today marked the fifth anniversary of the start of the Iraq war with the message: "The world is better, and the US is safer."...The president was given a round of applause during what was labelled his most upbeat assessment of Iraq since his 'mission completed' speech in May 2003, when he said: "Because we acted, the world is better and the US is safer

Meanwhile, those not living in political speech making land can point to a few lessons that might be learned... call them decisions to regret if you're not a politician. There are signs people not busy banging pulpits have learned from them too...

Where it all went wrong in Basra

The single greatest mistake was the US reliance on Ahmad Chalabi, an Iraqi exile, who sketched for them a portrait of his country that suited his own ambitions and happened to be what they wanted to hear...Donald Rumsfeld’s most significant contributions as Secretary of Defence are the phrase “unknown unknowns” and the decision to invade Iraq with a force of only 100,000. The first — a description of the threats you cannot pre-empt because you don’t know they are there — has entered the language of diplomacy; the second deserves to do so only as a lesson in mistakes

But some mistakes are still too close to a small group of politician's hearts to admit...

The US claims that the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, which did huge damage to its image in the Arab world, was the misjudgment of a few junior soldiers. But its defence of the systematic use of harsh interrogation techniques has not helped it to repair that, and nor has its defence of holding captives without trial at Guantanamo Bay. It is facing a sceptical Congress, legal challenge and hostile opinion abroad

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Old March 19th, 2008, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: john100 View Post
but then again, his pals got rich...

No, that was Saddam and his minions with the UN's disastrous Food for Oil program.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 03:21 AM
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Oh well, that makes it ok. Decide a fraction of the force necessary is all you need to invade, march in based on evidence provided by school children's homework and people not even in Iraq at the time of events they claimed to witness, lay waste to all around unleashing violent chaos, demolish the economy, provide a terrorist recruiters wet dream of a cause and then sit back and announce you made no mistakes.

It's ok 'cus Saddam and his pals managed to stay in charge despite food for oil - all the UN managed was to stop him building the WMD that would've made him a serious threat outside Iraq. If you don't count the civilian casualties stemming from the invasion (and lancet, the only people who seriously tried have now stopped because it wasn't safe for doctors to go round getting the source statistics) you can always say that things are better because of the invasion.

I don't think it's possible to deny that the Iraq war has made a small group of influencial people in the US extremely wealthy (or wealthier) off the back of no bid contracts.

I'm not looking for Bush (or Blair) to admit that, perhaps, they were entirely wrong - no politician from the lowest corporate manager on up seems to be able to generate anything more than the requisite "Terribly Sorry" the press like to print once in a while. I'm just irked by the "no regrets" stance of a man who oversaw at the very best some irresponsible mistakes that caused a lot of unecessary military and civilian deaths. Blair was as bad but at least he has now slunk off to collect his pay cheque and stopped loudly justifying his every mistake.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 10:25 AM
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No no, he did it to make money for his friends!

When Clinton was president and used Haliburton it was good because they were best equipped to deal with the job.

But when a republican does the same thing it could only be for evil purposes. You just have to keep looking until you find the reason, no matter how silly or far from reality it is. And if that doesn't work, just make something up.

Oh well, that makes it ok. Decide a fraction of the force necessary is all you need to invade, march in based on evidence provided by school children's homework and people not even in Iraq at the time of events they claimed to witness, lay waste to all around unleashing violent chaos, demolish the economy, provide a terrorist recruiters wet dream of a cause and then sit back and announce you made no mistakes.

It is really shameful that your debating skills are the equivalent of running around screaming "You can't hug your children with nuclear arms!"
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:07 AM
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When Clinton was president and used Haliburton it was good because they were best equipped to deal with the job

When did I say that?

Don't you think your comment kind of misses the subtle point that Clinton never oversaw the invasion of Iraq with a fraction of the troops necessary and then shut down the entire economy because it didn't match a mythical "free market" model - with no thought to what that might mean for the average citizen?

I think there's significant evidence of links between the administration that made so many avoidable mistakes in invading Iraq and, for example, blackwater or haliburton. You can call that "looking until you find the reason" if you want.

Much smarter, better informed people than myself have documented the links. Without a brain scanner to read their minds I can't tell if the administration were motivated by their own greed, manipulated by people smarter than themselves motivated by greed, of if the whole lot are just people who made an astounding number of eminantly forseeable mistakes (it's not like the risks of the decisions made weren't pointed out at the time) and coincidentally several happen to have made a lot of money out of their errors.

It is really shameful that your debating skills are the equivalent of running around screaming "You can't hug your children with nuclear arms!"

No, it's shameful yours are no more than projecting some "commie hippy liberal agenda" onto my posts and debating that rather than dealing with the issue of whether the man who oversaw some devastating mistakes should really be so blithely regret free - whether the cause was greed or stupidity.

One of the obvious things about the whole invasion was a total failure to learn the useful lessons of recent history in parallel with a surprising readiness to apply wildly inacurate but emotive historical parallels to WW2. I think that in refusing to consider the possibility their might be things to regret Bush is making sure the lessons of this invasion do not get learned by as many people as would otherwise. As I posted originally it seems that fortunately others are willing to learn some of the lessons available.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:20 AM
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I suppose if a lie is repeated enough you start to believe it.

Can we limit this discussion from every possible issue under the sun to a single issue?

Am I correct in that you are referring to the Iraq war as one of the mistakes when you state "devastating mistakes"?

I've debated this one many times and we can do it again if you like.

No, it's shameful yours are no more than projecting some "commie hippy liberal agenda" onto my posts and debating that rather than dealing with the issue of whether the man who oversaw some devastating mistakes should really be so blithely regret free - whether the cause was greed or stupidity.

Well when you say things like:

based on evidence provided by school children's homework

you can't really be expected to be taken seriously, can you?

Is it possible to debate logically and not emotionally?
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:23 AM
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why did we invade iraq?
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:26 AM
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As this has gone on- I've started to believe that George was more genuine in his efforts to do something positive for the world than it seems. I still think going to war was wrong, but I feel that pulling out now would be disastrous!

Watching that Blair interview that was on recently made me think that President Bush is easy to lampoon, but actually he has earned Tony Blair's respect for a reason!
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Pope_Wingnut View Post
why did we invade iraq?


The left repeats the two falsehoods that Bush's critics seem to think will magically become true if they just keep chanting them:

1) The only reason the US invaded Iraq was because of its WMD programs, and

2) Bush emphasized Iraq was an "imminent threat" to American security.

In fact, Iraq did have active WMD programs, which even the UN's special commission, UNMOVIC (UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission), confirmed this (also here).
The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as [forbidden] medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The Senate Intelligence Committee confirmed this summer as well that Iraq was seeking to acquire "yellowcake," uranium ore, from Africa, just as British intelligence had claimed all along, and President Bush used 16 words to declare in his 2002 State of the Union speech. Since the end of the invasion, chemical-filled munitions have been found and one chemical artillery shell was used as a roadside bomb against American troops.

Iraq, of course, used massive quantities of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the 1980s, killing thousands. Following 1991's Gulf War, the UNSC resolved - repetitively - that Iraq must divest itself of existing stockpiles of unconventional weapons (meaning nuclear, chemical or biological weapons), certain kinds of long-range attack weapons such as missiles with a range longer than (from memory 100 kilometers, and cease development programs thereof. Furthermore, the burden of proof for compliance with these resolutions rested on Saddam's government. The weapons and weapons programs' materiel had to be destroyed by the United Nations inspection teams or Iraq had conclusively to document its own destruction of its WMDs and WMD programs.

Significant progress was made over the ensuing years, but increasing and finally total resistance and evasion of the requirements finally led the UN to withdraw its inspection teams in late 1998. That December, citing grave danger from Iraqi WMDs and WMD programs, President Bill Clinton launched Operation Desert Fox, an intensive bombardment of Iraq that lasted four days. The UK participated also. Clinton did not seek authorization from Congress to conduct this brief war; he said that the 1991 Gulf War resolution was still in effect and inherently authorized whatever military actions he ordered against Iraq.

Over the next four years every Western intelligence service and many others (i.e., Russia) and the UN itself concluded that Saddam had restarted WMD programs and was making significant progress in several areas. The UNSC passed Resolution 1441 in December 2002 that gave Saddam an ultimatum: admit the UN inspection teams for unfettered activity or face "serious consequences;" the resolution authorized member states to enforce its terms. All diplomats understood this resolution was diplo-speak for threat of war.

That Iraq possessed actual nuclear, chemical or biological weapons by early 2003 was hardly doubted by any Western nation. Since the invasion the existence of forbidden weapons and weapons programs has been conclusively proven, although except for some chemical shells no actual weapons have been found.

However, that Iraq had active WMD programs, forbidden by the UN, has been decisively proven, as I related above. So I would like to ask Mr. Walloski and others scoffing at the WMD-related rationale for the invasion to say whether they think President Clinton was right or wrong in December 1998:

We began with this basic proposition: Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to develop nuclear arms, poison gas, biological weapons, or the means to deliver them. He has used such weapons before against soldiers and civilians, including his own people. We have no doubt that if left unchecked he would do so again.

Saddam must not be prepared to defy the will -- be permitted -- excuse me -- to defy the will of the international community. . . . So long as Saddam remains in power he will remain a threat to his people, his region and the world. . . .

Why, if this claim was right and just in 1998, was it less so in 2003? Why, if Clinton was right and just to attack Iraq in 1998 - and not resolve the issue!- was Bush wrong to attack in 2003 and conclusively resolve the issue?

Now let's turn our attention to the "imminent threat" canard. The president's opposition, Mr. Walloski being the latest example, continues to claim that Bush said Iraq posed an "imminent threat" to the security of the United States.

But Bush said no such thing. I quoted Kerry supporter Andrew Sullivan last October:

The administration claimed that Saddam had used WMDs in the past, had hidden materials from the United Nations, was hiding a continued program for weapons of mass destruction, and that we should act before the threat was imminent. The argument was that it was impossible to restrain Saddam Hussein unless he were removed from power and disarmed. The war was legally based on the premise that Saddam had clearly violated U.N. resolutions, was in open breach of such resolutions and was continuing to conceal his programs with the intent of restarting them in earnest once sanctions were lifted. Having read the report carefully, I'd say that the administration is vindicated in every single respect of that argument. This war wasn't just moral; it wasn't just prudent; it was justified on the very terms the administration laid out.

Here are some pertinent facts laid out by John Hawkins, for which I am providing the original citations and other commentary. Bush explicitly addressed the Iraqi threat in his State of the Union Speech in January 2002:

Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

There was no claim of an "imminent threat" there, but instead an explicit continuation of Bill Clinton's existing policy , that the threat posed by Saddam's weapons programs must not be allowed to become imminent.

Furthermore, the potential WMD threat was only one point of the casus belli laid out by Bush before the invasion. On Sept. 12, 2002, President Bush addressed the United Nations General Assembly. In this speech, Bush concisely explained the case against Iraq:

If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately and unconditionally forswear, disclose, and remove or destroy all weapons of mass destruction, long-range missiles, and all related material.

If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all support for terrorism and act to suppress it, as all states are required to do by U.N. Security Council resolutions.

If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans, and others, again as required by Security Council resolutions.

If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will release or account for all Gulf War personnel whose fate is still unknown. It will return the remains of any who are deceased, return stolen property, accept liability for losses resulting from the invasion of Kuwait, and fully cooperate with international efforts to resolve these issues, as required by Security Council resolutions.

If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all illicit trade outside the oil-for-food program. It will accept U.N. administration of funds from that program, to ensure that the money is used fairly and promptly for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

Finally, consider the words of this prominent American political figure in 2002:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Who said that? Hillary Clinton, Oct. 10, 2002, who said in the same speech on the Senate floor that if the UNSC passed a "strong resolution" requiring Iraq's compliance, then,

I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President [Bill] Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

What this means is that that her position was that no further Congressional authorization was needed for President Bush to force Iraq's compliance by military power.

A final point: Mr. Walloski said in the interview that the world is better of without Saddam in power and that the liberation of Iraq was a good thing. Yet now he calls the liberation and Saddam's removal a mistake. I can't explain the cognitive dissonance found in these kinds of statements, especially when they are coupled with claims that freeing the Iraqi people was sort of beside the point of the war (it was either all about Dubya-Emmm-Deees or the ooooiiiiiiiiiiiilllllll). Somehow, this explicit statement by Bush to the UN General Assembly on Sept. 12, 2002 has escaped their attention:

Liberty for the Iraqi people is a great moral cause, and a great strategic goal. The people of Iraq deserve it; the security of all nations requires it. Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest, and open societies do not threaten the world with mass murder. The United States supports political and economic liberty in a unified Iraq. ...

If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission . The regime will have new power to bully and dominate and conquer its neighbors, condemning the Middle East to more years of bloodshed and fear. The regime will remain unstable -- the region will remain unstable, with little hope of freedom, and isolated from the progress of our times. With every step the Iraqi regime takes toward gaining and deploying the most terrible weapons, our own options to confront that regime will narrow. And if an emboldened regime were to supply these weapons to terrorist allies, then the attacks of September the 11th would be a prelude to far greater horrors. [italics added]

Twice in as many paragraphs the president emphasized the liberation of the Iraqi people as both a moral and strategic imperative of the United States, yet his critics now claim this goal was retrojected onto the campaign after the occupation seemingly turned sour and after stockpiles of WMDs were not located.

Yet it is blindingly obvious that as early as this speech's date, Bush was not claiming at all that Iraq had a storehouse of WMDs; note well his language: "With every step the Iraqi regime takes toward gaining and deploying the most terrible weapons... ."

An objective consideration of the facts shows that the administration never claimed that Iraq posed an imminent threat because of its WMDS or WMD programs, and that in fact the president pretty clearly indicated the threat was not imminent. But he also was clear, as were previously both President and Senator Clinton, that Saddam WMD programs must not be allowed to come to fruition.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 12:01 PM
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Am I correct in that you are referring to the Iraq war as one of the mistakes when you state "devastating mistakes"?

I personally see invading Iraq as a mistake but that debate has been done to death.

I'm more interested in a single point: Bush is out there announcing he has "no regrets" when there were clearly many mistakes made in the method of the occupation. For example, too few troops were used initially. There is evidence the recent "surge" has had some good effects and saved lives. It was a mistake not to use more troops initially and save lives sooner. Why doesn't Bush regret overseeing that mistake?

you can't really be expected to be taken seriously, can you?

How did you miss this story? It was in the papers at the time. One of the uk intelligence sources for the 45 min claim turned out to be an essay written by a (Iraqi) school child. If you want to discount that there remains "curveball" - the german informant who quite clearly had not been in Iraq at the time of events he claimed to have witnessed.

Can you imagine ordering the troops to go to war and risk their lives and the inevitable related civilian casualties on the basis of flawed intelligence such as this and having no regrets?

I've started to believe that George was more genuine in his efforts to do something positive for the world than it seems

I think there's something wrong with a person who can look at overseeing what we can only hope will eventually turn out to be a mixed success and announce "no regrets".

I feel that pulling out now would be disastrous!

I tend to agree, but I would've thought that in itself would be a regret given the optomistic initial proclamations of "mission accomplished".

actually he has earned Tony Blair's respect for a reason!

Blair most certainly has his talent but he's not a man who's judgement I'd value on this issue.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 12:03 PM
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lucky it turned out to be such an earner then

What happened to Iraq’s oil money? - Lisa Myers & the NBC News Investigative Unit - MSNBC.com

Senators: Where is Iraq's oil money going? - CNN.com
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Old March 20th, 2008, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: john100 View Post
I personally see invading Iraq as a mistake but that debate has been done to death.

I'm more interested in a single point: Bush is out there announcing he has "no regrets" when there were clearly many mistakes made in the method of the occupation. For example, too few troops were used initially. There is evidence the recent "surge" has had some good effects and saved lives. It was a mistake not to use more troops initially and save lives sooner. Why doesn't Bush regret overseeing that mistake?

Oddly enough the article you posted doesn't mention anything about the word regret.

That's before you went off about his "pals getting rich" and again you wonder why it is difficult to take your attempt at a debate seriously.

I fully believe it was the best thing to do and I can and did back that up.


Originally Posted By: john100 View Post
How did you miss this story? It was in the papers at the time. One of the uk intelligence sources for the 45 min claim turned out to be an essay written by a (Iraqi) school child. If you want to discount that there remains "curveball" - the german informant who quite clearly had not been in Iraq at the time of events he claimed to have witnessed.

Take a look at my post above and look at the evidence and unless you are completely intellectually dishonest you will see that the evidence used was slightly more than "school children's homework".

If you are unable to see my post above just let me know and I will post it again.

Originally Posted By: john100 View Post
Can you imagine ordering the troops to go to war and risk their lives and the inevitable related civilian casualties on the basis of flawed intelligence such as this and having no regrets?

Had that been the only source, or at least a primary source no one would disagree. However this is where we differ. You create a false scenario such as the school children's homework being a major or even entire reason, even though you know nothing could be further from the truth, then ask "how can they do that?" when in reality that is not a true scenario at all.

I tend to think you realize there were many, many more credible sources (such as I posted) but again, it doesn't appear you are interested in any sort of intellectual honesty.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 12:53 PM
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I tend to think you realize there were many, many more credible sources (such as I posted) but again, it doesn't appear you are interested in any sort of intellectual honesty.

You seem stuck on the "It's all about WMD" point - much as you claim oponents of the invasion are stuck on the "It's all about oil" point.

If you want to claim that most of the evidence was more valid you run up against the weapons inspectors themselves who oposed invasion and the fact all the evidence since the invasion has been that sanctions had been entirely effective in robbing Sadam of the ability to develop such weapons. Sanctions imposed by the UN you seem so desperate to make the villain of the piece.

If the intention was not to present the strongest possible case for invasion (rather than the most balanced case on the best evidence) why was flawed evidence (which you seem to have changed your opinion on) included. I agree there was a clear split between the case made by Blair which rested entirely on WMD and the case made by Bush which rambled on a bit about other stuff but the dishonesty lies in presenting to the public a case including current capacity and then later saying "but we presented other arguments too" as though that made it ok.

Oddly enough the article you posted doesn't mention anything about the word regret

That's really not a very good shot. It's terrible in fact. I think I've seen Cam make better points... Really? It doesn't? Oh well, I linked to one of several pieces on the same speech and thought people might be up to date on current affairs and be familiar with the "no regrets" phrase since it featured in the headlines so prominently. That's just outright dishonest of me! I should've known better!!! I was clearly trying to mislead the dlist!!! Good thing you're so quick and caught me!
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Old March 20th, 2008, 01:53 PM
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