TKD: The Sine-Wave Arguement

It's been a long time since I posted on the forum here, but an argument via YouTube comments made me decide to come on here and see what others think on the topic.

This thread applies to all martial arts practitioners alike, as it refers to generation of power. So please say what you think about either form, or TKD as a whole.

So, to Sine-Wave, or not to Sine-wave? That is the question.

What's the pros/cons, strengths/weaknesses of each?
What are the purposes and theories behind each?
Should sine-wave power generation be translated in broad external movement, or more as internal rotation and positioning?
Is power generated from the ground up? Or by utilizing the forces of gravity?
Which just looks better?
Ultimately, which makes more sense?

Have fun with that one!
Peace!

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The E.S.Q.

First are you saying there is an argument over sine wave being real or not? If so go back to a 7th grade science class.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

LOL
Why you gotta' waste my flavor like that aqira?

I'm talking about martial application of sine-wave motion principles.
Cuuum'on!

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The E.S.Q.

In arts such as iron palm, chin-na dim mak etc the basic motion or force that is used for penetrating impact is a form of a sine wave it’s just not called that or thought of in that way. It is also one of the basic principlas of Reiki

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

I don't know that much about TKD but in most if not all internal Kung Fu systems wave forms and in particular sine wave forms are very important. Two things are considered the singularity (clean nature) and the harmonics (harmonic nature) one of the first examples given is the ripples across calm water from dropping a stone. The waves expand but in a harmonic pattern that is the intent of harmonic force being applied in something like a strike.

Let me ad that one thing every boater knows is if you have a strong current on an out going tide running out a channel against a sea with a strong incoming wind the waves become much higher, more curled, and stronger. In addition because of natural global forces like gravity and the rotation of the earth the 5th and 7th waves are bigger. The 7th wave is the one they watch for. This is addressed in martial arts all the time.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Sine-Wave:


No Sine-Wave:


(There aren't very many examples online of non-sine-wave TKD, this is the best I could find.)

__________________
The E.S.Q.

So they attempt to replace rhythm with ridgid line moves? Why?

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

What? I have never in all my years of practicing martial arts ever heard of "sine-wave" power whatever. When I hear sine-wave I think of an o-scope. Can you explain what you're talking about?

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"When you see a good move wait - look for a better one."
- Emanuel Lasker

Look at the above videos.
It's a big "my way is better" argument between TKD practitioners between current (sine-wave) and more "traditional" (no sine-wave) training methods.

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The E.S.Q.

do you mean that bouncing up and down thing?

i liked the look of the boucey one

from a shearly mechanical dynamics point of view

there will be more kinetic energy conversion in the bouncy one

as the rigid one will dissipate the elastic strain energy stored in the muscles as heat

to maintain rigidity

where as bouncy women releases the strain energy as movement

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

And the practical application of the bouncing?

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The E.S.Q.

She would do very well in CMA. If she learned a little more about Fa even her TKD would improve.

My take on this is Yes, what you call sign wave is important. But your view (likley the TKD view as a whole) of the concept is VERY rudementary.

Its a foundational concept in CMA and in particular Internal arts. Chan Su Jing as well as Fa Jing.
I cant even get into it because everyone here whos studied CMA has been in on the discussion many times.


Let me ask you this. Which one did you like? Which looked more powerful to you?

The answer will help formulate responses. Also so I don't start TKD bashing.

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One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

Well I study the "no sine-wave" version of TKD, so personally I have a fondness towards it.

But that's not to say that we don't use similar sine-wave principles in generating our power, which is something that is widely misunderstood about the more traditional (prior to the 1980's) styles of TKD. The main difference is that we don't externalize the sine-wave movement throughout our entire body. Instead we use rotation of joints (as opposed to the bouncing) in order to create a whip-like transfer of kinetic energy -- from the ball of the foot, to knee, to hip, to torso, to shoulder, to elbow, to fist, for example.

As well, I find it easier, faster, and more efficient to generate your power directly up through the body from the ground, as opposed to allowing gravity to generate power for you. This combined with the shortest distance between two points being a straight line sort of diminishes the reasonability of externalizing sine-wave motion.

To me, the idea of bouncing to generate power is redundant as it slows you down substantially, telegraphs your intention to strike, and takes your center of gravity too high in your chest (thus decrease you balance, and increasing you susceptibility to takedowns/throws). Allowing that kinetic transfer to be generated by the hips, instead of by the torso, eliminates those problems.

This is my understanding of Internalize/Externalized sine-wave transfer of energy in the form of a diagram:

Externalized:
............___ ............
.........,*.....*, .........
____ / ______ \ _____
..... /.............. \.......
__,*................. *,__

Internalized (ie. the "no sine-wave" way):
................. ___.....
.............. ,*.....*,..
._______ / ______ \
\ ........ / ..............
.*,___,*................


So I suppose it's not so much question of sine-wave or no sine wave, but rather a question of internalization vs. externalization vs. phase. Internalized, the sinewave has only 2 plateaus, when potential energy is essentially at zero. The for is not only more balanced, but has the strike delivered upon the maximum point of energy. I think this is a true translation into any successful striking martial art, be it boxing, muay thai, or kung fu. Though the principlesof transition may not be explained in the same way.

Anyways, that's my piece. I'm off to work now.

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The E.S.Q.

"The main difference is that we don't externalize the sine-wave movement throughout our entire body."

This indicates to me that you see these as two different things maybe internal generation and external application?

"the shortest distance between two points being a straight line "

Many arts count on that kind of thinking and look to exploit the line

"sort of diminishes the reasonability of externalizing sine-wave" why?

motion is and itself creates a wave form

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Why? Because if I bounce up before I strike I'm basically giving my opponent a warning that I'm about to strike (I'm telegraphing), I'm imbalancing myself and raising my center of gravity (making it easier for someone to knock or take me down), I'm relying on gravity instead of my own strength to generate power which is finite.

No offense, but this is all getting a little too philosophical and theoretical.
Basically what it all boils down to in martial arts is this: what is the fastest, hardest way to hit the other guy before he hits you while putting yourself in a suitable position to do it again?

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The E.S.Q.