Mandatory Military Service

What's all this about US universities now?

__________________
Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	You were in the States during the Nam draft and can actually speak for the people drafted?	”

Silly.

I spoke to them years afterwards when they had ended up about as far away from the states as possible; mostly because they were no longer able to cope with life there. Interestingly one thing they kept coming back to was the fact training had been designed to destroy their ability to think independantly; that's not something I see as a benefit to society though I can see how it wold appeal to leaders in particular.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare What's all this about US universities now?	”

It's hard to get a negative opinion of US universities when you're in the center of the "Athens of America."

But smaller colleges way far from Boston -- I've watched Fla. colleges cut staff and raise tuition for years, implement degree programs for flash-in-the-pan occupations (associates' degree in Y2K programming, anyone?), cut liberal arts programs because some fundie got offended at the use of the word "liberal", and ever on.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

One of the big reasons why American universities are far and away the best in the world is because of competition and innovation. The wide variety and type of higher ed options are also what makes for such real opportunity in the US in this regard.

__________________
Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: john100 Silly. I spoke to them years afterwards when they had ended up about as far away from the states as possible; mostly because they were no longer able to cope with life there. Interestingly one thing they kept coming back to was the fact training had been designed to destroy their ability to think independantly; that's not something I see as a benefit to society though I can see how it wold appeal to leaders in particular.	”

So, if I listened to all the people in the US who left the UK and talked about how horrible this, that or the military was. I should take that as gospel?

Yes, that was their experience as they saw it. Particularly if they were unfailingingly honest, never bitter, generous, unbelievably hard working, and had dedicated their lives to sacrificing themselves to help others. If such people end up in a mud hut at the end of the world telling you why they resigned their commission despite a documented history of being decorated multiple times you tend to listen.

Of course, if they're just whinging pommies who couldn't make the grade and wanted to go whine in the sun then you pay their story less respect.

I did find it interesting that all of these people (and there were more than 10 or 20) - from the hardened combat vets to the guy who got drafted and then ended up in Korea for the whole of his service - said that the main purpose of training was to remove their independence because so many recruits didn't want to be soldiers in the first place. IMO this would be a big problem with compulsory military service; training would have to stop being about teaching people to be good members of their force and start being about making them do things they never had any interest in. I can't see it being good for the forces or particularly useful for the poor saps forced to join them for a couple of years.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Combat is very high stress, so a plan has to be put into place to ensure your soldiers follow orders and do their duty, so yes, making them act as one to create unity and build teamwork is important, it also ensures they can be trusted to run into gunfire, kill people and all other sorts of crazy ship.
While you are taught to follow orders, obey command and work as a team, you are also taught to think for yourself and do the right thing.

“	you are also taught to think for yourself and do the right thing	”

That's your experience as a member of a professional volunteer force and it matches what others tell me of their experience of serving in a volunteer force as professionals. It wasn't theirs as members of a compulsory one and it wasn't the opinion of the psychiatrists drafted in to explain why things sometimes went foully wrong in Vietnam.

It is also going to vary with the regiment you end up in. Specialist or prestige regiments are going to encourage more independant thought but they also have a history of only accepting volunteers even when compulsory service is in place.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

One reason people suggest millitary service is that it would resist the problems affecting university education

A grotesque bidding game is undermining university standards | Geoffrey Alderman - Times Online

"In the modern, mass higher education system, there must be prizes for all, because the student is the customer and the customer must have something for his money."

Not something compulsory millitary service would suffer from but it would suffer from the same problems of mass intakes lowering the overall calibre.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

There is no more Mandatory Military Service in SA. My dad had to join the Airforce, my uncle was in a Tank up in North Africa. I was given a choice and I said "no thank you".

And, some of the types of characters that volunteer for Military here,.... whoaaaa.... seriously messed up people. The sort of people you don't want holding a gun around your family. Often those who can't pass their psych tests often join Armed Security Companies here to patrol residential streets looking for breakins and such. I went to fill up petrol the other day, and some of those guys ( this company makes the other ones look like carebears, but I would say they are just as likely to take you out instead of the criminal ) were just hanging out at the garage. The one guy was walking around with a .45 in one hand and a combat shotgun in the other, and he was gesturing with them while he was telling loud jokes. So, at some points, this idiot would be pointing that s**t at me. He didn't seem disciplined or controlled and I got the f*** out of there.

Some types should never be allowed a gun.

It's a difficult subject, so I'm gonna try not to step on anyone's toes here. I do personally believe, the fact that human beings cannot avoid war and military, it just shows what a bunch of f***-ups we are. Hopefully, a comet will wipe us out, like today, and some cool mutant Dolphin species can take over.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

my sentiments exactly

__________________
"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

Well... dolphins wouldn't be able to point guns at each other. That's a significant evolutionary advantage in many ways.

“	There is no more Mandatory Military Service in SA	”

Probably a good thing for a lot of people given what some conscripts went through in say, Angola.

“	join Armed Security Companies here	”

The one's too ****ed up to make it there have a tendancy to bluster their way into jobs in countries with even more problems. With some of the older ones part of that bluster is past military service. These are people who have so much to prove they start gunfights "for fun" with no thought of potential civilian casualties. It does truly impressive things for SA's reputation in the third world; particularly when these types start getting involved in "aid" deals. Fortunately there are a lot of sane, intelligent S Africans around to balance things out.

Me, I can't help thinking a lot of people are enthusiastic about compulsory millitary service because they think stuff like this is a good thing 'Beasting' punishment killed soldier, jury told | UK news | The Guardian

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Probably a good thing for a lot of people given what some conscripts went through in say, Angola.	”

There are some serious horror stories of guys who came back from Angola, one day just killing their whole family, then offing themselves. My best friend's dad was there. He told me some really f***ed up stuff.

So many people with PTS don't get any kind of practical help. You seen that movie Harsh Times ? Really freaked me out, because that sort of thing really happens, and it happens all over the world where there is Mandatory Military service, but they just chuck these guys away when they are no longer useful, and one day they explode on the people they love.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

“	Fortunately there are a lot of sane, intelligent S Africans around to balance things out.	”

And then there's me

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

“	it happens all over the world where there is Mandatory Military service, but they just chuck these guys away when they are no longer useful, and one day they explode on the people they love.	”

I haven't seen the film. I found chatting to ex spetsnatz who'd fought in Afghanistan interesting because they just didn't have a PTS "story" in their culture. Nor did they have problems adjusting to "normal" life or any experience of others with such problems; never mind any experience of people exploding (any more than "normal"). Then again, "normal" life for them was pretty ****ed up.

That might be one advantage of compulsory service. Every one has gone through it so every one "understands" or at least shares some common ground. Not the best argument really.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me