Well, I would suggest to, instead of being a stubborn, obnoxious flat-out arsehole with not a iota of tolerance or willingness to even understand what others are talking about, let alone having a PRODUCTIVE discussion that includes other peoples viewpoints, simply reading up the results of a google search with the following key words: "adrenalin lymph pump". And then the impact of adrenalin on the human energy system. The newer term for adrenalin would be "epinephrin".
BTW, we already had a sane comment from someone who knows about the issue via way of studying it on the impact of muscle contraction inhibitors, and the possible absence hereof, but of course, not everyone can be interested in discussing something that isn't his own opinion.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
I agree with what you are saying. I'm also a boxer, so I understand the importance of body mechanics. Jing in regards to Chinese medicine refers to essence. Jing Shen is one's spirit, so I think that is what you guys are refering to in terms of Jing. Fa Jing is how to use your spirit with correct body mechanics. Think about it. Boxers are very powerful punchers, but if his spirit is weak, then he has no power regardless of how perfect his body mechanics are or how powerful his punches are.
Originally
Posted By: Nik
Well, I would suggest to, instead of being a stubborn, obnoxious flat-out arsehole with not a iota of tolerance or willingness to even understand what others are talking about, let alone having a PRODUCTIVE discussion that includes other peoples viewpoints, simply reading up the results of a google search with the following key words: "adrenalin lymph pump". And then the impact of adrenalin on the human energy system. The newer term for adrenalin would be "epinephrin".
BTW, we already had a sane comment from someone who knows about the issue via way of studying it on the impact of muscle contraction inhibitors, and the possible absence hereof, but of course, not everyone can be interested in discussing something that isn't his own opinion.
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LOL!
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Wolfgang says:
I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893
OK, Good point! I admit my knowledge is limited to what my shifu is currently teaching me, and yes it is all from a CMA point of view. I'm not saying that what Shifu says is the only correct answer. I'm just sharing my limited knowledge.
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
If you have never seen that in karate, Muay Thai or boxing then you really should expose yourself to more things. There is a reason boxers are the most powerful punchers in the world.
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I couldn't agree more about boxers being extremely powerful punchers. They have loads of power, great mechanics, amazing strength. And, it's a different kind of power. It's not fa jin. Even in the internal Chinese arts, there's very little fa jin. It's difficult to put into words and rarely seen or experienced because most teachers were never taught it. Most tai chi in the world is no longer taught as a fighting style, even.
I think many reading this thread have taken the assumption that because internal arts, when taught properly, have this kind of power called fa jin, that Danny was saying there isn't power anywhere else. He's not at all. Mike Tyson in his prime had immense power, for example, but not fa jin.
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
I couldn't agree more. They have loads of power, great mechanics, amazing strength. And, it's a different kind of power. It's not Fa Jin.
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So if these CMAists want to develop maximum power then why don't they train in the mechanics that these powerful boxers emply and forget about this fa jin stuff?
I remember seeing that show on Discovery, I think it was... Fight Science, maybe...?
The CMA guy was the least powerful of all the martial artists tested... why was that? And from the video above I can't discern any power generation. I see what could be interpreted as power generation because of his quickness and the reciprocation of his body mass (yin/yang or push/pull) but in order to see some actual power generation we need to measure psi on impact, not witness someone punching the air.
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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."
You cannot per se tell that "a boxer" isn't using jin, or on the verge of having fajin. Fajin is really more a degree of using something in a moment so that the movement is extremely explosive, i.e. consuming a larger amount of stimulants and energy donators at once, at the expense of overconsuming. It would also collide with a boxers idea of being able to fight 12 rounds and 500 punches, not be tired after ten such actions. There is a good chance that for example Mike Tyson was having jin, because it's something that can develop naturally when in enough threatening hassles. Soldiers would almost definetly start to use jin under life threatening circumstances, you can tell from the mind blanking out and acting like a robot, with enormous power and speed.
The only thing that would not be trained for such individuals is the fine tuning, the coordination, and the development of certain muscle areas. But that isn't rocket science or magic, it's plain simple easy exercises you just would have to do. Mike Tyson for example DID stuff similar to internal arts movements, I saw it on film, in a documentation of his early time before that **** Don King got him.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Danny's blog entry simply talks about a kind of power called fa jin. I think it's normal for people who don't know what it is or have never experienced it have a hard time understanding it. I just re-read Danny's blog, and if you are reading it having loads of experience in other styles but not much in internal styles, I can see where you'd think, that just sounds like good mechanics.
To further complicate the matter, there are a lot of bad internal teachers out there who don't know or teach the martial aspects of their arts at all. Even in Taiwan, most of the tai chi I saw was missing the martial aspect. I know of a teacher that knows fa jin, but I don't see it in any of his students.
Some teachers claim to have magical fa jin powers and make it into this big mystical thing that is their big secret, and that doesn't fit with my understanding of fa jin, either. It's not a big secret or a big mystical thing. It's just a way to learn to use your power through the study of Chinese internal martial arts.
One time Danny came to visit me after a few years of us not seeing each other. I showed him where my fa jin was at on a target pad he held. He said it was better and asked if I had been practicing a lot against a post or heavy bag. I said not really, I been mostly practicing the form a lot. This practice increased my strength, rooting, relaxation and flexibility, which is where the fa jing comes from.
For me, the discussion can't be framed by subjective opinion as to which art or kind of power is better or worse. Most people like to say their art is better than the next. I like a lot of different martial arts for a lot of different reasons. Different martial arts have unique features to them, that's what makes them interesting.
I like the depth and breadth of Tukong Moosul. In Tukong, one learns short distance, mid-range and long distance fighting. One learns falls and tumbles. One becomes very fit. One practices a lot of kicking. It's a soldier's martial art.
I think Wing Chun is a fantastic close-range martial art. I love the rolling punch, low kicks and centerline theory. Fantastic stuff.
Ba Gua rocks. I love the power, grace, balance, light footedness, fa jing, strength, suppleness that are a part of ba gua practice. I love the circle. I love the philosophy. One book I read claims ba gua is the original internal martial art, and tai chi and hsing-yi borrowed these internal concepts, like fa jing, from ba gua.
I like boxing. I've trained very recently in boxing and I trained in boxing when I was a boy. I love the cardio and mechanics of boxing, although the inability to grab due to wearing those big gloves is a little frustrating! It's an excellent sport.
Fa jing exists. It's pretty cool. It's one of the cool things I like about tai chi. The fa jing, the rooting, the strength, the suppleness, the power. I love seeing my new students sweat and get really tired from by moving slowly through the form. What drew me to tai chi was the peace of mind and the comfortable body. The fa jing, or learning how to use my power, was gravy. It's cool that I can hit a lot harder now than before I studied tai chi. It's cool that my wing chun rolling punch has a lot more power. However, at then end of the day, how often to you have to use your power to hit someone? But, how often can you use peace of mind and a comfortable body!
Read a lot of books, study from a lot of teachers, and practice, practice, practice!
David
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
Originally
Posted By: Nik
You cannot per se tell that "a boxer" isn't using jin, or on the verge of having fajin. Fajin is really more a degree of using something in a moment so that the movement is extremely explosive, i.e. consuming a larger amount of stimulants and energy donators at once, at the expense of overconsuming... Mike Tyson for example DID stuff similar to internal arts movements, I saw it on film, in a documentation of his early time before that **** Don King got him.
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Yes, very good post: thoughtful and objective. Thanks!
I think we have a different understanding of fa jin. The mechanics of fa jin are very clear to me, so I think I would be able to see it in a boxer. To me it's not a state of mind or an adrenaline-like or "in the zone" type experience.
Also, the energy spent is less than a typical punch, as the body is very relaxed and it takes less energy to hit with good mechanics and high relaxation than otherwise. Once I was filming sequences of Danny practicing and he reeled off maybe 40 or 50 crescent kicks (standing in a shallow river by a waterfall) and wasn't winded.
I think it's really cool that Tyson did stuff similar to the internal arts. Thinking back, his lightning fast straight line upper cuts remind me of a tai chi punch. Didn't he rotate his entire body into those? I didn't study tai chi back when he was fighting. I'll look for some old tape of him. Maybe he did have fa jin.
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
What about people who have experienced it and been exposed to it and people trained in it extensively that have the same opinions......?
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To each their own. Absolutely. Who the Hell am I, anyway? Just one person.
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
This guy's good: Hsing Yi is the most demonstrative of the internal forms of fa jing. In the 99 tai chi form I practice, we only show our power on a few occasions. In Hsing Yi, it's much more common.
Notice how he's sitting his gua, or hips? That's key. Coiling the spring.
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
Well, people see me as "extremist" for this, but I still say that until you have the full energy metabolism that is not so unknown to medicine down to the ultimate extreme (that is, being capable of having full-blown epinephrin boosts, that kick in EVERY time you need power), visible in both a weight gain (unless you are already heavy built), thickening skin, pudgy but thickening muscles, tingling in the tongue, and allover the body when used (indicating the transferal of adrenalin components to the muscles, tissue), you might have a part of jin usage on the mechanics, but it's not the full thing. This usage of jin comes in degrees, it enlarges the capacity in lower doses (that means you can go 3 hours in a state that usually doesn't allow that, but then you are -done- and go vomiting and dieing a bit), but the heavy duty full-out house shaking fajins cannot be done in numbers and right after another. I don't know how quickly the body recovers, but my experience was that after doing two palms in a row that shattered 3" concrete slabs with no spacers flat on the ground, the third one failed, and my arm was pudding, and shaking.
There are things that some people call "fajin", that don't need really much if any strength, but that is an entirely different "trick". A certain Thorsten Kanzmeier drops pro boxers at will using body punches of that sort, maybe you like to visit some of his seminars when he's in the US. That guy is a 130lb dwarf, dry.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
That guy is good (I used him as an example for good Xing Yi a while ago), but he has his body structure optimized for using this kind of moving. You don't need to have this sort of movements, to use jin. But it helps, to have a certain body mechanics, so you can utilize it perfectly. This kind of hand issueing is a training method and used for body strikes, but you can fajin also to an uppercut, or other strikes. Virtually any strike can have fajin qualities, but it might look a bit clumsy if so.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893
What drew me to tai chi was the peace of mind and the comfortable body. The fa jing, or learning how to use my power, was gravy. It's cool that I can hit a lot harder now than before I studied tai chi. It's cool that my wing chun rolling punch has a lot more power. However, at then end of the day, how often to you have to use your power to hit someone? But, how often can you use peace of mind and a comfortable body!
