Practicality of Releases and disarms

is that the reason that there are flow drill like hubud and the like

so you can feel the opertunities as they arise

?

__________________
"....if you're ever attacked by someone armed with a banana, your first thought has got to be to eat that banana. Thus leaving him unarmed and defenseless." - ace

“	Disarms are areas of opportunity--they just happen, or you just happen to be in a position to be able to make it happen. As soon as you start trying to focus on, or force a disarm, you do yourself a disservice; like trying to chase a submission instead of abandoning it and doing what best fits the circumstances.	”

I would say this is the "secret" to applying disarms and releases in a Live ( full contact sparring or street confrontation ) situation.

Some of the flows that teach you to set up all those multiple locks and repositioning and relocking etc. They are never intended to look like real fighting. You are trying to program muscle memory, so that when you have to rely on yourself in the Adrenal state ( science shows that the human brain can remember a Max of 5 things at once while in this state, so wave goodbye to trying to remember those flows in your head anyway ), you just react and flow in a way that is natural to you, but when an opportunity presents itself, your muscles just go " Hey, I remember this", and you can move without thinking into a Disarm. Many other techniques besides Disarms and Releases benefit from this freeflowing approach.

If you try to look for the disarm or have any ideas like, he will punch or whatever then I will grab his weapon and disarm it's no good. You have to just relax and if you have trained well, it will feel natural and certainly possible in a Live situation.

When I do a disarm when I am sparring, I only realise "I did a disarm" after the fact, and not during. Me and my partner have even swapped sticks a few times before without realising it till later.

just saw your post Pope Wingnut,

I would say a big YES.

Hubad is also a nice starting base to teach people to come out of the whole Disecting The Corpse Ritual and learn to start applying technique out of movement. It can be the first step in making your art "alive" I think.

Programming the muscle memory through stimulus / response training is so necessary that it amazes me that people don't do more of it. I agree with Doughboy here too. Disarms, locks/seizes, takedowns, breaks, and the like happen in a non-premeditated manner as a result of the stimulus given within a situation. I'm not saying that you can't intentionally go after these, but that is usually, in my experience, not too successful.

What kind of muscle memory, stimulus /response practices do you guys work on?

__________________
I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

Hey Sifu Chuck,

To me, free sparring with a good opponent is one of the best developers of good muscle memory. One of the main reasons for that is pain. If I try a move on my sparring partner and I strike him with the stick his body remembers this. When I try the same move again, well maybe sometimes I get him again. But by the third time his mind, his subconcious, his muscle memory, has all decided he no longer wants to get hit there. I try the technique again and this time I get smacked in the head.
The next time we spar I will try the same thing at any point and wham, it doesn't work anymore. I can try it all I want his body is now programmed to respond before his brain even knows what is going on. And so on the neverending cycle of attack and counter.

As far as specific exercises/drills/methods they are as many and as varied as there are styles within the broad spectrum of Filipino Martial Arts.

One thing that was taught to me right at the beginning ( and every other person who learns FMA ) is the concept of Defang The Snake. This is very important to install as muscle memory. For example, someone tries to stab my body so I move my body and cut their attacking hand at the same time.

I really like the Dog Brothers Martial Arts approach, which is to let contact sparring and physical fitness & attributes take priority over techniques and drills. They also believe in experiencing the Adrenal State during sparring so as to teach the muscles and gain the ability to function in the Adrenal State by repeated exposure to this state. Some people learn better this way and I find that I do too. It's not that I shun drills or anything. If someone tells me they have something cool for me to try I am all ears. But when I train so-called "Tappy-Tappy" and Drills would normally be a 10 minute warmup if we are feeling rusty or cold. 99% is just free sparring with different weapon variations ( and barehand ).

This is very different from when I started learning FMA, when of course I didn't know the first thing about the movement and the energy and the actual "feel" of FMA. The first step in getting a feel for it was jamming some stick sparring with people who knew what they were doing who could say " don't swing like this " , " dont step like this " etc. Then I turned to learning a lot of drills and flows like Hubad and Sinawali. I didn't feel ready for sparring yet since I still felt stupid trying to co-ordinate both sticks at once etc. But once I started sparring, the real lessons really started. When I am sparring I feel like I am truly experiencing the heart of FMA.

Here are a couple of drills or scenarios that we have played around with when we do decide to do something besides free sparring.

1) We always carry a concealed training knife during sparring. Often no one will use it. Sometimes it just suddenly comes into play when you are not expecting it which is very good to condition a quick response to the change in your situation. Sometimes your opponent finds it while you are grappling and uses it on you

2) Take a knife or gun ( no real ones please ) and get someone to hide it on their person ( in the palm, clothing, etc. ) without you looking. Then you stand with your back to them and when they touch your shoulder to get your attention you have you work out where the weapon is and get to it without telegraphing your movements. Develops your mind to more quickly spot a concealed weapon. If you cannot spot the weapon at any point your partner will simply draw his weapon and attack full force as quickly as possible which is also good stuff to experience.

3) Spar ( gloves, headgear, crotch guard & mouthguard probably a good idea for full contact ) where one of you is not allowed to use hands at all but the other person has no restrictions, then swap. This is a GREAT exercise for forcing yourself to improve your footwork fast and develop muscle memory relating to Timing, Spacing, and Balance.

The best way to develop muscle memory is ultimately through repitition ( this is probably a big reason why sparring can be so effective ). Modern science has shown that when we constantly have to do a task ( for example tying your shoelaces ), our brain actually changes it's shape and structure to create more efficient Neuron Pathways in your brain. This allows for quicker reaction and more efficiency each time you do something. The trap here is that someone might program themselves to efficiently get their ass kicked if they are not honest about what they do.

For programming muscle memory for disarms and releases you really have to experience being locked and disarmed. You feel what it is like to try and resist in different ways. Some ways don't work. Some ways give you more pain instead of relieving it. You can do some co-oprative Lock Drills at first just to learn some different ways the body can be locked and hurt. Learning about anatomy, nerve clusters, tendons, joints, etc. can help you initially to understand what you are trying to do, then the free flow lock drills allow you to play and experiment with the human body and allows you to tighten up your movements and when a certain position presents itself in a real fight your muscle memory will hopefully take over. Obviously you can't go straight from a Lock Flow Drill into a real fight and expect a disarm. But as you spar regularily while doing some flows on the side, every now and then you start going for disarms. At first they don't work most of the time because your brain has not yet optimised itself for that task, but the more times you attempt it when the situation is right, the closer you get. Eventually it is just a natural part of your fighting flow. Whenever certain situations occur in combat your muscle memory just goes on like a lightbulb.

I hope that's an ok answer. If you wanted to know more details about the various drills like Hubad there are probably more qualified and experienced here who can give more info.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy Hey Sifu Chuck, To me, free sparring with a good opponent is one of the best developers of good muscle memory. One of the main reasons for that is pain. If I try a move on my sparring partner and I strike him with the stick his body remembers this. When I try the same move again, well maybe sometimes I get him again. But by the third time his mind, his subconcious, his muscle memory, has all decided he no longer wants to get hit there. I try the technique again and this time I get smacked in the head. The next time we spar I will try the same thing at any point and wham, it doesn't work anymore. I can try it all I want his body is now programmed to respond before his brain even knows what is going on. And so on the neverending cycle of attack and counter.	”

I have to say that it is nice to see that others value the necessity of repetition in honing their skills.

Much of what I do is what I call stimulus / response training. I teach, as well as practice, in a way that allows an insane amount of repetition of movements and structures that maximize the end result for the practioner.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy I really like the Dog Brothers Martial Arts approach, which is to let contact sparring and physical fitness & attributes take priority over techniques and drills. They also believe in experiencing the Adrenal State during sparring so as to teach the muscles and gain the ability to function in the Adrenal State by repeated exposure to this state. Some people learn better this way and I find that I do too. It's not that I shun drills or anything. If someone tells me they have something cool for me to try I am all ears. But when I train so-called "Tappy-Tappy" and Drills would normally be a 10 minute warmup if we are feeling rusty or cold. 99% is just free sparring with different weapon variations ( and barehand ).	”

I don't know if I totally agree with this. I will admit I am not too familiar with the Dog Brothers' training philosophy so that might be the problem. I agree that training within the adrenal state is necessary to developing fighting ability. However, I like to make sure that the muscle memory has been ingrained really good before I have them do that.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy For programming muscle memory for disarms and releases you really have to experience being locked and disarmed. You feel what it is like to try and resist in different ways. Some ways don't work. Some ways give you more pain instead of relieving it. You can do some co-oprative Lock Drills at first just to learn some different ways the body can be locked and hurt. Learning about anatomy, nerve clusters, tendons, joints, etc. can help you initially to understand what you are trying to do, then the free flow lock drills allow you to play and experiment with the human body and allows you to tighten up your movements and when a certain position presents itself in a real fight your muscle memory will hopefully take over. Obviously you can't go straight from a Lock Flow Drill into a real fight and expect a disarm. But as you spar regularily while doing some flows on the side, every now and then you start going for disarms. At first they don't work most of the time because your brain has not yet optimised itself for that task, but the more times you attempt it when the situation is right, the closer you get. Eventually it is just a natural part of your fighting flow. Whenever certain situations occur in combat your muscle memory just goes on like a lightbulb.	”

I think that its progressive. For instance, if your body knows what the onset of a lock, takedown, etc, looks and feels like, you will be able to counter it much more readily than someone that does not.

But playing and experimenting with h human body, and the energies that it gives off, I agree is very important.

So if you were in a situation where your muscle memory failed (Sparring with a brother) how would you address it? Would you go to a drill that honed it, or tell your partner "Hey, do that again""?

__________________
I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

“	I don't know if I totally agree with this. I will admit I am not too familiar with the Dog Brothers' training philosophy so that might be the problem. I agree that training within the adrenal state is necessary to developing fighting ability. However, I like to make sure that the muscle memory has been ingrained really good before I have them do that.	”

Dog Brothers Martial Arts ( DBMA ) philosophy does not go against what you are saying here. You could go study under for example Marc Denny ( Crafty Dog ) and he would teach you the way you want to learn. For example, if you didn't like full contact sparring and would rather get into the cultural aspects of the art and learn lots of drills he would gladly accommodate.

It's not that you have to start off full contact ( in fact they advise a few years intense training before you even attempt coming to one of their little gatherings ). It's that you must at some point learn to function in the Adrenal State or you will never be able to fight well when your life is on the line.

Sorry if I worded things a bit wonky.

“	So if you were in a situation where your muscle memory failed (Sparring with a brother) how would you address it? Would you go to a drill that honed it, or tell your partner "Hey, do that again""?	”

I am often in that situation actually . Well, when the muscle memory fails me or is incorrect ( and I get whacked ), my partner will aggressively go for that opening again and again until I learn. Not really just repeating the same technique over and over, but more using any tools he likes to keep making me open up there again. If I get completely destroyed a few too many times, we stop and slow it down and try to problem solve with each other, for better alternatives to whatever we were doing that didn't work. Once I feel like I understand why I was getting hit we just go back into free sparring and see how it goes again.

If I learn a movement from someone else to counter my mistake, and I can't seem to get it right even though I can see it work for other people, I will then use a Flow or Drill that is appropriate to feel the right "energy" of the movement. As soon as I think "ah" then it's back to free-sparring.

If my partner is struggling with a move he really wants to learn then I go Disecting the Corpse slow motion style for him a couple times and just let him apply the move and get familiar with the motions. Then free sparring again.

I think it's fine to run through the motions and learn co-oprative as long as it's for a very short period of time just to get over some mental hurdle you are stuck behind. But it's vital to take that move to the un co-operative sparring stage to do any sort of real application ( and to me this includes fine tuning Muscle Memory and Response times ).

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy I am often in that situation actually . Well, when the muscle memory fails me or is incorrect ( and I get whacked ), my partner will aggressively go for that opening again and again until I learn. Not really just repeating the same technique over and over, but more using any tools he likes to keep making me open up there again. If I get completely destroyed a few too many times, we stop and slow it down and try to problem solve with each other, for better alternatives to whatever we were doing that didn't work. Once I feel like I understand why I was getting hit we just go back into free sparring and see how it goes again.	”

Are you speaking about weapons sparring in particular or both weapons and open hand sparring?

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy If I learn a movement from someone else to counter my mistake, and I can't seem to get it right even though I can see it work for other people, I will then use a Flow or Drill that is appropriate to feel the right "energy" of the movement. As soon as I think "ah" then it's back to free-sparring.	”

I like the way you used energy here. I agree, but I would disagree with you leaving it as soon as you get the "ah" feeling. Perhaps it just my tendency to be a lot more cautious. When that "ah" feeling occurs, I like to work it for a bit and then change the parameters of it over and over with the intent of losing that "ah" feeling. This allows not only acquirement of the technique, but the ability to pick up(read) and develop numerous responses to the disruption of the original energy(what you called the un cooperative state) that was being worked off of intially. I hope that makes sense.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy I think it's fine to run through the motions and learn co-oprative as long as it's for a very short period of time just to get over some mental hurdle you are stuck behind. But it's vital to take that move to the un co-operative sparring stage to do any sort of real application ( and to me this includes fine tuning Muscle Memory and Response times ).	”

Do you run through the motions live? By that I mean in a live sense, with intent? I drill everything in a progressive manner, constantly encouraging my students to make it more live, more intentful. The gradual increase of the level of intensity allows the student to develop their mindset for fighting. It takes a bit longer to achieve adrenal state development with this. However, what I don't have happening is people freaking out in sparring sessions. I used to carry a Japaneze(kendo) practice sword that I would hold when I played referee. I only had to use it once to calm a situation down.

My goal is to have my students use the system they are learning to fight with, while sparring. I hate seeing tmaists resorting to Kick-Boxing when they spar. It bugs me to no end.

__________________
I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

“	Are you speaking about weapons sparring in particular or both weapons and open hand sparring?	”

Both.

“	I like the way you used energy here. I agree, but I would disagree with you leaving it as soon as you get the "ah" feeling. Perhaps it just my tendency to be a lot more cautious. When that "ah" feeling occurs, I like to work it for a bit and then change the parameters of it over and over with the intent of losing that "ah" feeling. This allows not only acquirement of the technique, but the ability to pick up(read) and develop numerous responses to the disruption of the original energy(what you called the un cooperative state) that was being worked off of intially. I hope that makes sense.	”

When i say "ah" I don't mean like "ah" I got it right without stumbling the flow. I mean "ah" I understand how I can use this in sparring and want to try now.

I agree with what you are saying ( though I had to read it a couple times before I understood ). I just personally find it easier to build these multi-faceted approaches while free-sparring. When I am doing a drill, I feel trapped inside a concept or a technique. I just can't wait to break out of that mould and make it my own. But while free-sparring I feel completely free as a martial artist and this makes my mind, body and soul more receptive to a quicker learning.

“	Do you run through the motions live? By that I mean in a live sense, with intent?	”

Yes. Preferably right from the start. We only ever resort to co-operative responses when one of us is really struggling to understand something and the "Liveness" is becoming distracting. Then as soon as that person understands we go back to sparring full contact. I have those slow days sometimes ( I swear only sometimes ! ) when I really need someone to e-x-p-l-a-i-n to me.

“	However, what I don't have happening is people freaking out in sparring sessions.	”

Has never happened with us. We are normally laughing and having too much fun. If I am pissed off or stressed ( happened when I had a headache once ) while sparring, I like to get my sparring partner to hold out his stick and instead of directing anger at my partner I try to smash his stick in half with mine just one good shot then we carry on all mellow again. Aggression is natural and sometimes you need a healthy outlet. If you can remember not to assign blame to anyone but yourself when you get hurt it is much easier to deal with that constant hard contact mentally

“	My goal is to have my students use the system they are learning to fight with, while sparring.	”

I fully support you on that one.

“	I hate seeing tmaists resorting to Kick-Boxing when they spar. It bugs me to no end.	”

Kickboxing totally rocks. But i guess if you say you do Pakua Kung Fu ( for example ) and you Kickbox when you fight something is seriously wrong.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy Both. I agree with what you are saying ( though I had to read it a couple times before I understood ). I just personally find it easier to build these multi-faceted approaches while free-sparring. When I am doing a drill, I feel trapped inside a concept or a technique. I just can't wait to break out of that mould and make it my own. But while free-sparring I feel completely free as a martial artist and this makes my mind, body and soul more receptive to a quicker learning.	”

Knowing your own learning style is a great asset to an individual.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy Yes. Preferably right from the start. We only ever resort to co-operative responses when one of us is really struggling to understand something and the "Liveness" is becoming distracting. Then as soon as that person understands we go back to sparring full contact. I have those slow days sometimes ( I swear only sometimes ! ) when I really need someone to e-x-p-l-a-i-n to me. .	”

How do you compensate for the fact that you "know" what the other person is going to do in that situation? How I see it is that when you are working out with a brother, you are utilizing a certain skill set determined by the system that you are involved in. Knowing that seemingly would lend to some cooperation or complete stalemating. When you train a drill, the other person knows what is coming and should be actively learning how to defend against it. This makes it very difficult to pull off that same "technique" safely in a live sparring session.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy Kickboxing totally rocks. But i guess if you say you do Pakua Kung Fu ( for example ) and you Kickbox when you fight something is seriously wrong.	”

Amen

__________________
I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

“	How do you compensate for the fact that you "know" what the other person is going to do in that situation?	”

You mean in live sparring ? Then I don't know what he is going to do. I have ideas of certain things he might try, and can guess sometimes to a degree, but that usually leads to me getting smacked when I presume to know what is coming.

If you mean with a Flow or Drill, then what I do is switch my intellectual brain off completely. I allow myself to completely give in to the energy of the flow rather than trying to think in steps ( I do this in sparring as much as possible ). Also Flow drills in FMA are rarely like ABCDEFG. It's more randomised on each repitition. There is no beginning or end to the flow. You may exclude certain movements or techniques to bring a focus on what you are trying to improve on, but there is no ABCDEFG every time like I have seen in a lot of Flow Drills in other MA.

“	How I see it is that when you are working out with a brother, you are utilizing a certain skill set determined by the system that you are involved in.	”

The thing is none of us have the same fighting style. We just share a passion for sparring and the JKD philosophy. The way I react to a move is often very different from how my partner responds.

“	When you train a drill, the other person knows what is coming and should be actively learning how to defend against it.	”

When we train flow drills it is NEVER in a "first you do this technique and I respond like this, then this technique, etc. ". We sometimes use the method we learned through Paul Vunak, which is to use Hubad as a starting base to learn technique. You then choose to focus on applying specific techniques out of the movement of Hubad. It's not like a repeating cycle. You don't always go for the application, you have to wait for the right moment when the energy feels right. once you have a feel for that through Hubad, you glove up and move around and when the moment comes, you take it.

Hubad is a nice starting base for learning to apply Disarms and Releases from movement. But you can Hubad forever and not be able to fight. You gotta glove up I think. Going through things technically and in steps certainly has advantages, but it can sometimes create more new questions than it answers the original ones. When you put on gloves and punch and kick and clinch and grapple each other most of those questions are answered pretty quickly.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy You mean in live sparring ? Then I don't know what he is going to do. I have ideas of certain things he might try, and can guess sometimes to a degree, but that usually leads to me getting smacked when I presume to know what is coming.	”

Perhaps my confusion is due to the fact that I don't understand what your class structure is. Do you guys have a set curriculum that you work off of? Or is it just mostly free-sparring?

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy If you mean with a Flow or Drill, then what I do is switch my intellectual brain off completely. I allow myself to completely give in to the energy of the flow rather than trying to think in steps ( I do this in sparring as much as possible ). Also Flow drills in FMA are rarely like ABCDEFG. It's more randomised on each repitition. There is no beginning or end to the flow. You may exclude certain movements or techniques to bring a focus on what you are trying to improve on, but there is no ABCDEFG every time like I have seen in a lot of Flow Drills in other MA.	”

I would encourage you to look at your drills a little more. Depending on the drills that you use there is so much more to them. All of them teach flow, but the truest form of flow can't be achieved until the other aspects are absorbed. Drills teach mechanical aspects that will increase your abilities as a fighter. Again since I don't know what a class is like for you I may be totally off base.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy The thing is none of us have the same fighting style. We just share a passion for sparring and the JKD philosophy. The way I react to a move is often very different from how my partner responds.	”

Sounds like a buffet!

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy When we train flow drills it is NEVER in a "first you do this technique and I respond like this, then this technique, etc. ". We sometimes use the method we learned through Paul Vunak, which is to use Hubad as a starting base to learn technique. You then choose to focus on applying specific techniques out of the movement of Hubad. It's not like a repeating cycle. You don't always go for the application, you have to wait for the right moment when the energy feels right. once you have a feel for that through Hubad, you glove up and move around and when the moment comes, you take it.	”

There is a lot of argument about what Chi-Sao is in the Wing Chun community. I see it as a tool. People can use tools for different ends. Your description of the drilling you do sounds a lot like one way I do Chi-Sao, or poon-sao (I never get used to that name). We start from a neutral, contact position and work from there.

“	Originally Posted By: Doughboy Hubad is a nice starting base for learning to apply Disarms and Releases from movement. But you can Hubad forever and not be able to fight. You gotta glove up I think. Going through things technically and in steps certainly has advantages, but it can sometimes create more new questions than it answers the original ones. When you put on gloves and punch and kick and clinch and grapple each other most of those questions are answered pretty quickly.	”

I agree. I just like to do all the technical prep work I can before I let people do the next step. It's the school teacher in me.

__________________
I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

yep hubud is very chi sau like

i think its one of the reasons wing chun players get along with FMAs so well

__________________
"....if you're ever attacked by someone armed with a banana, your first thought has got to be to eat that banana. Thus leaving him unarmed and defenseless." - ace