Got No Flow

This is going to be an odd thread. Its FMA/External Weapons.

An intersting thing happened recently as I was introducing my senior student to flow drills. he has dont some tui shou type stuff before but we dont generally train that way.

Most of our applications and drills have been free form but unscripted and focused on breaking the attackers timing or rythim on the first defensive motion. via body/limb positioning or by striking. Hes quite good at it too. he stops most people right away.

So when introduced to flow drill he was having a hard time playing with it and continueing through the flow. He couldn;t even get the flow going past a few motions to get to a point where he would insert an interuption. He puts them in right away.

I was laughing a bit because I could not fault him for being good at defending strongly and quickly. He just wanted to defend, mess you up nand get the heck out.

Anyway thats my tale of being happy with not being able to flow.

Caveat.

I love flow drills (inster your name for them here) and really enjoy playing them. I know how they have helped over time and understand the value of them over time.

So what do you guys think about this little problem?

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

The way the arts training developed was as a dance, so the flow is very dependant on rhythm. If you have control of your rhythm you should be able to step in and out of the sequences at will.

__________________
By nature we have an open mind by dogma we close it.

i have the opposite problem

i can flow very well

i have problems snapping out of it

so while this is a good thing for me defensively

i does kinda hinder my attacking potential

i fink it is a function of my personality

physical aggression is not something i have an affinity to

but playfullness is

__________________
"....if you're ever attacked by someone armed with a banana, your first thought has got to be to eat that banana. Thus leaving him unarmed and defenseless." - ace

In your flow drills it's one for one correct? You attack, he blocks then attacks and you block then attack, back and forth?

__________________
"If i'm fighting you ,then your intentions or actions led to it ,not mine." -- Jeff C.

http://www.haywardmartialarts.net

you guys with flow problems or those having problems starting and stopping should take saw palmetto herb

__________________
By nature we have an open mind by dogma we close it.

I think you taught your student the most important skill first umar. He will learn to flow within the drills over time, but you ensured he can defend himself first. "Flow" drills like hubud, tapi tapi and sumbradas depend on one partner cooperating and allowing his opposite to recover so he too can de and attack. In a fight, once it is my turn (I have the initiative) I don't want to allow you to have another turn. Sounds like you have trained him well.

“	"Flow" drills like hubud, tapi tapi and sumbradas depend on one partner cooperating and allowing his opposite to recover so he too can de and attack. In a fight, once it is my turn (I have the initiative) I don't want to allow you to have another turn.	”

Flow drills have their place and they can teach you many things that can up your game as a fighter, but they should never be confused for actual fighting and anyone who trains that way is a bit of a tard.

Flow drills help me in the way that when I am free sparring with my friends, when my hands or whatever ends up in a position from a drill, I can react with movement that puts me in an advantage because those movements have been drilled into my muscle memory. I don't try to actually do any part of the drill. It's that after doing something for a while when you are sparring your body remembers things from the drills and you have reacted in a way that makes things better for you, before you can even think "what should I do ?" This has allowed me to do some good strikes, submissions, locks, disarms, etc.

I think they are good to learn a lot in the beginning, but they should be abandoned ( unless you want to carry on for your own enjoyment ) as soon as you start applying them in a free sparring environment. All training should be done as a progression. You can start off with a dead opponent, even just for a couple minutes just to learn the movements then you free spar and just let go and flow.

Sometimes it helps me to first learn a movement against a co-operative opponent just so that the pressure is off and I can make sure I am using correct body mechanics and get my breathing right. Then we glove up and I don't seek the movements we trained before, I just let my body react in the ways it has been programmed.

The last several sessions I have had we haven't done any Flow drills at all but I can feel how they have benefited me ( from training them earlier ) now fighting against an aggressive opponent.

Flow drills are what they are. One shouldn't try to make them what they aren't.

Also you can still do sensitivity training when you are really old so it's good to know a few good drills.

A boxer has many drills he can do against the Heavy Bag. It is a dead opponent and it does not fight back yet it can be a very usefull tool to improve his fight game. At the same time he does not confuse it's purpose. He will also do plenty of sparring.

I agree flow drills have an important place in the practice of FMA. I did not mean to sound like I think they are unimportant. They are indeed a great way to put important skills into muscle memory. I just meant that self defense is different from the perfomance of drills and one of the key differences is the ability to perform a- rhythmically. In Lastra Arnis we say learn the drill, gain the skill, forget the drill. Patterns are something that good fighters exploit (particularly fencers). I know plenty of people who do Tai Chi and are great at push hands and could not fight to save their lives. I know many Arnisadors who are drill masters and can not stick fight to save their lives. I think umar is teaching his students to defend themselves first and to master their systems drills second. Once again I don't mean to sound like I think flow drills are unimportant. For every drill I teach in class I first teach the skills the drill is supposed to develop, then I teach the associated drill for students to practice. It just sounds to me like umar has followed the same teaching protocal.

Hey Willow,

I wasn't trying to direct that post at you specifically. I just used your quote to get the thoughts rolling.

“	I just meant that self defense is different from the perfomance of drills and one of the key differences is the ability to perform a- rhythmically. In Lastra Arnis we say learn the drill, gain the skill, forget the drill.	”

I agree with this 100% .The better Kali/Arnis/Eskrima schools don't often fall into the flow drill trap, because they understand the purpose of flow drills and explain this correctly to their students.

“	Patterns are something that good fighters exploit	”

Probably one of the biggest reasons I now practice JKD. All styles can be beaten because they have patterns and therefore weaknesses. Though a smart fighter can use these weaknesses/patterns as lures to bait someone to attack and fall right into a trap.

While stickfighting, when I fall into patterns I always get a reminder in the form of a throbbing welt on the arm ( or some numb fingers ) from my training partner. The same goes the other way around. When I start to spot his pattern I can easily break it. But, like I said, when you are using patterns on purpose to lure your opponent that is a whole other story.

Hey Doughboy, no worries, I was just trying to explain my reasoning because I think one of the great features of FMA are these flow drills. I enjoy them, they are and extremely flexible, adaptable ways to practice important information. They also leave room for personal expression/innovation within the drill. I was afraid I had left the impression that I did not like the drills. I just wanted to encourage umar because I liked his approach in teaching self defense applicable skills first. I find that when students feel confident in their ability to defend themselves, they relax in class and absorb other material more easily,

Flow drills can be a good development tool in double sticks to get the weak hand skills up. It also helps train the ability to switch lead hands.

Flow drills are also a good tool to get across what time and movment means to new students. Development of weapon control, being in sinc hands to body with the other student will help a student get out of the box they are in from old habbits.

__________________
By nature we have an open mind by dogma we close it.

Aqira,

I know that to be true because I experienced it firsthand. My left hand was completely retarded till I learnt some Sinawali drills.

Also it taught me how to wield two weapons at once and not clash them together or kill yourself

Willow,

I really like a training progression I saw on an old Paul Vunak tape. I use it myself and find it to be a great way to make any technique you know come "alive". Basically, you choose a technique that you want to practice and you try to apply it while doing Hubad without breaking the flow. This can be any technique at all from practically any MA. After you are able to find the right moments in Hubad ( the idea is not to look for or try to force the technique but to flow into it when you feel the right moment ), you both put on gloves and you move around freely and you get your opponent to just attack you and you try to apply that move against someone who is trying to beat you down.

Another flow drill I like quite a bit is doing Clinch flows. You don't strike each other except quite soft ( mainly just to point out openings to your partner ) and the focus is on practising Clinch techniques. I like to combine the sort of wrestling stuff Randy Couture likes doing with the underhooks, duck under, slide by, foot sweeps, etc. and combine that with what I have learned in Dumog ( which is pretty darn similar in principle but the favour is different in each ). Also throw in the plum, or Muay Thai clinch and throw a few light knees in too. You try to practice getting into a better clinch position than your opponent and trying to expend less energy than him/her. You also try to move your opponent so that his strikes can't get any power ( because you jolt him off balance ). Then you free spar with a focus on trying to find openings for those same techniques.
Then you can start the whole process again but include takedowns. A lot of fun I thought.

Aqira,

I hadn't thought about it that way but I think that flow drills are really the best way to get across the the importance of timing and distance in the effective application of technique.

Umar,

Those drills sound great of course I work my FMA with the hubud drill, but i am gonna try working some of my CMA stuff in as well. I also will try working the clinch the same way. You work the clinch like you work the "pummelling" drill (greco-roman)? I have worked the Muay Thai plum a good bit empty handed. Sounds like good stuff, never thought of developing a cooperative "flow" drill with these techniques but I am deffinitely gonna start working on it. thanks Umar

hey man I'm not Umar