Chang Ming - Taoist Long Life Diet

john100 · #46 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2005, 07:56 AM

“	Ayurvedic medicine is heavily influenced by Yoga in the West which is really an ascetic religious practise, it's not based on health but self-denial	”

Yeah, right

That's why BK Iyengar is so concerned with health ("unless freedom is gained in the body freedom of the mind is not possible") and why so many senior teachers stress the fact yoga is not about self denial.

Ayuverdic medicine is based on balance - here and in India. You're being deliberately controversial or ignorant.

**chuangzu** · #47 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2005, 06:18 PM

I stand by what I have said and I'm not trying to be contraversial just expressing my opinion. The popular kind of Yoga we most commonly see today has at its roots a religious ascetic practise of self-denial, the health stuff has been added to make it palatable to middle class westerners.

john100 · #48 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2005, 11:56 AM

Hmmm... that would make you ignorant

. Your comment about 'middle class westeners' makes me think you don't know much about India or Indians. You don't know or are choosing to ignore the fact that one of the roots of yoga is also meditative practices designed to indulge the senses. Indian martial arts (kalari) is another. You're also ignoring the fact that detatchment and enlightenment are not self denial. Bhudda abandons his ascetic practice, he gets drunk with the butchers...

How much do you know about the history of yoga? Where did you find it out? I think you should read some of the interviews with senior (Indian) teachers who also happen to be Ayuverdic 'doctors'.

Sure, there are a lot of people telling middle aged middle England to wiggle their toes and think beautiful thoughts but as a tai chi practicer I would've thought you'd remember people in glass houses shouldn't start throwing stones. As a guy living in the middlands I'dve thought you'd know enough NRI's to realise that's not a western thing.

**chuangzu** · #49 (**permalink**) February 22nd, 2005, 08:27 PM

Yes I live in the Midlands so I know plenty of Indians.

I do not live in a glass house or throw stones.

Yoga is derived from ascetic religious practises.
Yogis may sleep on a bed of nails, flagellate themselves till they bleed, starve themselves (also known as 'fasting'), retire to cold stone temples to beg for their food, stick skewers through the skin, I even saw a picture of this one guy who held his hand in the air for so long it got stuck there and he couldn't get it down again. There are many such ascetic practices around the world performed by all kinds of fanatics not just confined to Yogis.

The idea is to deny the flesh and mortify the body in the hope of boosting the spiritual energies. It can be quite addictive because the body thinks it's being attacked so it produces adrenaline and endorphins. This is nothing whatsoever to do with health despite whatever sales pitch they may have given to Sting, Madonna or middle class Californian housewives. In fact it's quite the reverse, it's a kind of dying.

These kinds of things were originally meant as a prelude to meditation to deny the senses not indulge them, although most Yoga teachers in the west will know nothing about all this. In fact most of them will have no philosophy whatsoever and do it as an easier kind of aerobics.

Taoist practises are quite different and are based on health which is why they do not involve any kind of fasting or self-denial, they may look similar to the casual observer but in fact the principles are the exact opposite.

john100 · #50 (**permalink**) February 23rd, 2005, 06:31 AM

Maybe we should take this to a dedicated thread...

“	Yoga is derived from ascetic religious practises	”

This is one of the roots of yoga. There are others. Even ascetic practice was balanced.

“	Yogis may sleep on a bed of nails, flagellate	”

This is like saying 'taoists my take mercury believing it to be the elexhir of life'. I've never heard of flagellation as a yogic practice. I thought that was a catholic vice. The point of the bed of nails is that it doesn't hurt but it impresses people who then give you money. It's a trick! It is, incidently, a staple of 'martial arts' exhibitions on the same basis.

“	The idea is to deny the flesh and mortify the body in the hope of boosting the spiritual energies	”

An excellant description of ascetic practices but nothing to do with yoga.

“	most Yoga teachers in the west will know nothing about all this.	”

If you know so many NRIs you'll know splitting 'the west' from India like this is silly. If you'd read any of the recent works on Indian history and Hinduism you'd realise most popular ideas about both are wrong. Budhism, animism, and islam were far stronger influences on both for far longer than the current 'Hindu Nationalist' views popular in India and 'the west' would like.

Many yoga teachers in both 'the west' and India have no idea of the roots of yoga. That doesn't make you an expert on it. I've done a lot of yoga with a some senior teachers and read a lot of books. It doesn't make me an expert either but unless you're in the same position it makes me better informed than you

“	deny the senses not indulge them	”

Yes, ascetic practices are designed that way. This is only one of the roots of yoga. Another is practices based around indulging the senses, experiencing the realm of the senses to the full in the hope of achieving enlightenment (a state beyond desire) by exhausting desire. A third is Indian martial arts, which also gave rise to the healing tradition of Marma.

“	will have no philosophy whatsoever and do it as an easier kind of aerobics	”

Now I know you've never done yoga. You may have gone along to one of the watered down cash in fad classes but you've never done yoga. It's that word 'easier' that gives it away.

As for philosophy - that to me is the most obvious difference between yoga and tai chi. Most tai chi teachers have to tell their students they're studying a martial art because it isn't apparent from their training or the abilities they develop. They have to lecture their students on philosophy because the training has no impact on the student's emotional and mental state. Yoga teachers simply quote Iyengar "the postures are the meditation". They know that some students will persevere and that regular practice will change those students entirely and they will understand without being lectured. Of course that only applies to good yoga teachers and bad tai chi ones but you seem happy dealing in insulting generalities.

I agree yoga did not originally start out as a way to improve health. The health element had two causes: a desire to help others and a desire to enable less gifted students to achieve the benefits of practice. It was not begun as a way to earn money. Patabi Jois earns as much or more than Iyengar, Iyengar did not need to tell the world how he worked up to his level of practice, he could've set out on the same path PJ did. I agree that fitness teachers looking for extra income may do a few 'yoga therapy' workshops and start touting to the health market but no discipline with real benefits is imune to that.

I'm not an expert on taoism but I'd agree that tai chi at least is totally different from yoga. There are surface similarities but beneath them vast differences.

“	I do not live in a glass house or throw stones.	”

If you do tai chi you live in a glass house. If you criticise yoga you throw stones.

I repeat my question, where are you getting your info on yoga? Please, let me know, I'll check it out. There are a few senior teachers I'd love to tell something they don't know; that ascetic practices are the only root of yoga would definitely be news to them.

**chuangzu** · #51 (**permalink**) February 23rd, 2005, 04:53 PM

“	Maybe we should take this to a dedicated thread...	”

Yes we have kinda strayed off topic a bit here, not sure what we could call this one tho.

What do you mean 'NRI'?

I am suggesting that something which in essence the exact opposite of health, in other words 'mortification', is unsuitable for the purposes for which people have adapted it, however watered down it has become.

My expereince of Yoga comes from talking to Yoga practitioners and teachers, I have not read any Yoga books or practised it for the above reasons.

I am not sure what your experience of T'ai Chi is but it's not practised in glass houses, related to imbibing toxic substances, martial arts, or based on lecturing, as far as I am aware.

I am not in the least interested in Yoga, I think it's probably some kind of black magic that has been brought to the west in revenge for the hundreds of years the British occupied India, fair play to them. However I would be interested in any information you may have on Ayurvedic medicine, do you have any links you could post about it?

john100 · #52 (**permalink**) February 24th, 2005, 07:14 AM

“	Ayurvedic medicine, do you have any links you could post about it?	”

The beeb have an overview at http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/healthy_...yurvedic.shtml Skepdic has a list of links at http://skepdic.com/ayurvedic.html. I know of one guy who lectures in the uk and seems genuine. My local pharmacist recommended him, I didn't need it and I forgot the name. Next time I'm in and she's there I'll ask about a web site. Don't hold your breath, though.

My (ethnic Indian) tai chi teacher is interested and has a mate who runs an import business for ayurvedic herbs but anything I passed on would be Chinese whispers. Besides, both recommend Marma instead and claim the few qualified practitioners over here just don't use enough oils.

“	I am not sure what your experience of T'ai Chi is but it's not practised in glass houses	”

Nice one.

As some one who practices an often missunderstood and misstaught discipline I would have expected you to be aware of the need to go beyond popular missconceptions.

The toxic substances is from some comments about "taoist" alchemy on Dan Docherty's website (don't know if they're still up there). Your comments about yoga are similar to those a person who only knew tai chi was associated with taoism and so was such alchemy might make about tai chi.

I have encountered tai chi teachers who constantly reiterate "tai chi is a martial art" and lecture on "taoist" behaviour. They seem to be the ones whose teaching imparts the least martial ability and has the least real impact on their students.

"NRI" is how the Indians I know with Indian passports working abroad long term refer to themselves. It's an abbreviation for Non Resident Indian. I've seen it a couple of times on websites and in journals catering to such people so I assume its common usage. Living near Hounslow and working with India based outsourcing companies I forget that a lot of 'common' terms aren't actually that widespread.

“	I am not in the least interested in Yoga	”

Fair enough. I would say "don't slag it off then" but, to be fair, I'm as much disagreeing with a position I see a lot in tai chi circles - that all the people giving tai chi a bad name are better suited to an "inferior" discipline like yoga - as I am your specific comments.

“	I think it's probably some kind of black magic that has been brought to the west in revenge for the hundreds of years the British occupied India	”

LOL

None of the Indians I've spoken to have thought of the occupation as a bad thing; maybe they were just being polite.

There are a lot of different styles of yoga. Some are definitely deeply mystical. The styles that attract me center around freeing the mind by freeing the body through correct alignment and movement. They happen to be good for my health and general conditioning (bonus). They got introduced to the west through the typical traveller-goes-to-India-happens-to-spend-his-time-doing-something-worthwhile-which-he-brings-back route. No revenge involved.

john100 · #53 (**permalink**) February 24th, 2005, 07:23 AM

“	I'd be curious to see the research on that	”

Storm, I checked back, no original research, just the opinion of a local nutritionist with a good reputation. (Good enough not to need a website). It seems that if the asthma is associated with an allergic reaction it is linked to increased hystemene production in the body. Certain foods are considered to trigger hystemene production specific fruits : oranges, strawberries.. The other restrictions are on 'mucus causing' foods dairy, wheat (other grains ok) and tuna for example.

**chuangzu** · #54 (**permalink**) February 25th, 2005, 07:20 PM

John:
Thnks for the balanced reply, I am aware of all the points you made just don't agree with them.

Yes I think they are just being polite.

I don't think Yoga is an inferior discipline at all just based on contrary principles to Taoism which is related to Chinese Medicine and focuses on health rather than fasting and mortification.

Thanks for the ayurveda links.

Re acid fruits- the reason they cause asthma and hayfever is that acid dissolves things, if it builds up in the body the skin tissues become weak, this is what causes sneezing and asthma like symptoms. The same goes for fatty foods which are hard to digest and also cause increased acidity. I think there is also some link with mucous forming foods.

**StormMountain** · #55 (**permalink**) February 25th, 2005, 07:30 PM

Well, what if you just ate lot of other foods that were Alkaline? Or does citrus fruits have specific compounds that cause these reactions?

I was looking at some stuff on Alkaline foods today and had a couple of questions for you.

A couple of the places I visited had contradictory ideas about what foods were acidic and Alkaline, any ideas for that? It was confusing me, for example, tea. Or is it that black tea is acid and grean tea is alkaline?

Do you guys feel that the body should be Alkaline or should it be PH balanced?
Here's a link to one of the articles I was reading today.
http://www.price-pottenger.org/Artic...id_alk_bal.htm

**tkdwarrior** · #56 (**permalink**) February 26th, 2005, 12:23 AM

“	I stand by what I have said and I'm not trying to be contraversial just expressing my opinion. The popular kind of Yoga we most commonly see today has at its roots a religious ascetic practise of self-denial, the health stuff has been added to make it palatable to middle class westerners.	”

Please read some of wat I wrote... u need to learn a LOT about Yoga and Indian culture
http://www.lifestyledecision.com/Yoga_prana/Yoga.html

“	Yoga is one of the six orthodox systems of Indian philosophy. It was collected and co-ordinated by Patanjali in his work Yoga Sutras. Yoga means to Bind, to attach, to join. Yoga has 8 different parts. Yama (it consists of moral commandments) Niyama (Disciplinary Rules) Asana (Posture/exercises) Pranayama (Breathing Exercises) Pratyahara(senses control) Dharana(Concentration) Dhyana (Meditation) Smadhi (State of super conscious) Yama and Niyama control's the person's emotions, whereas Asana makes his body healthy, thus conquering the first stage, which is to control outward quests. Pranayama and pratyahara, teaches the breathing and controlling the mind. this is second stage of Yoga. Dharana, Dhyana and samadhi take the person into the innermost quest of his self. This is last stage in Yoga.	”

Some Experts who I hate to name are popularised Yoga as Health system or something like that...
Yoga is Sanskrit word which basically means Union/summation.

“	I don't think Yoga is an inferior discipline at all just based on contrary principles to Taoism which is related to Chinese Medicine and focuses on health rather than fasting and mortification.	”

I've been practicing Yoga/Pranayama more than 10 yrs... I never heard of any such things in Yoga... thnx for enlightening me

-TkdWarrior-

**chuangzu** · #57 (**permalink**) February 26th, 2005, 10:01 PM

Storm: Some foods are acidic and some alkaline, the confusing thing is that some foods can have an acid or alkaline effect on the body. In general the bloodstream should be slightly alkaline and only becomes acidic in old age or through illness.

I would say that acid fruits like orange juice are extremely acidic even in effect and should be avoided unless you live in the climate in which they grow in which case a lot of the acidity will be sweated out of the system. In Chinese Medicine fruits are generally considered to be 'cold-energy' foods. Some fruits like apples have an alkaline affect and I believe some fruits such as melon are in fact alkaline in nature. Apples and strawberries are much closer to pH balance than lemons, oranges and so on. Tea is probably closer to pH neutral whatever the variety.

wisey1992 · #58 (**permalink**) January 6th, 2007, 07:53 PM

Thought i'd bring this post back lol!

I was reading about the chang ming diet you recommended and it said that you should reduce your fluid intake as much as possible.
the rest of the diet seems highly beneficial(except for the probable lack of protein) but i thought that you were supposed to aim to consume 2-3 litres of water a day so what is the theory behind a low intake of fluid?

Thanks Wisey

john100 · #59 (**permalink**) January 7th, 2007, 03:11 AM

The water thing is kind of contraversial. It's not limited to "taoist" diets but is a feature of some traditional health and fitness theories eastern and western.

I know people who've followed it and ended up with kidney stones... so I'd be a little wary.

I can't remember the exact explanation from a "taoist" viewpoint - we need chuangzu for that, but I do know chen man chi'ing was into it, I remember reading it in one of his books ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tai-Chi-Chua...e=UTF8&s=books )

Personally I've had good results not stuffing myself with water (as some contemporary "experts" claim you should) and not drinking during training or drinking cold drinks just before or after but making sure I get plenty of liquid.