Orgasmic... I mean organic

When it comes to flour I have always been a bit suspicious, knowing it used be a key component to wallpaper glue.

Which came first, the flour or the wallpaper?

Wheat contains lots of gluten which makes it nice and sticky. If you chew up about half a handful of whole wheat grains it will become a fairly decent piece of gum. Of course, it tastes like wheat rather than mint, so it's not the most popular flavor.

I'm constantly amazed and amused by the foods people will attack simply because they're the "flavor of the month" on the health food wheel of hatin'. If you look at back issues of Mother Earth News from the '70s you would think that whole wheat was the key to immortality, they were touting it so hard. That and "pure gluten" which was about the nastiest thing I've ever seen. There were lots of "scientific studies" back then to support the wheat theory, too.

Milk has been an important component of many civilizations, not just northern Europe (Scandinavia) but Russia, southern Europe, parts of Africa, Tibet, and parts of Asia. It has been served in different ways by all cultures depending on a lot of factors but to say that consumption was rare and limited is a giant load of BS.

The fact is, the only "new" thing about human existence is that foods are so readily available to us. Until recently, you ate what you could bring to the table. Cultivated crops made that challenge a great deal easier.

In fact, the easy availability of just about any food you want is so recent, I remember my grandfather going on about how great it was the first time he had canned vegetables in January.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Generally, in most parts of the world, whenever cereal-based diets were first adopted as a staple food replacing the primarily animal-based diets of hunter-gatherers, there was a characteristic reduction in stature, a reduction in life span, an increase in infant mortality, an increased incidence of infectious disease, an increase in diseases of nutritional deficiencies (i.e., iron deficiency, pellagra), and an increase in the number of dental caries and enamel defects	”

AAAGH!

That's terrible. Right there, in the first sentence, "whenever", implying a cause and effect relationship. Take a quick look at a couple of these "an increased incidence of infectious disease" Well now, that was certainly because farmed cereal is less healthy than grubs and berries. It had nothing to do with the increased population concentration, social organisation, and hygene issues that go allong with a switch from hunter gatherer lifestyle to a subsistence agriculture one. We know this because, well, we don't like grain and want to sell meat pumped with steroids and anti-biotics on the back of some mythical past.

"the primarily animal-based diets of hunter-gatherers" Which hunter gatherers are we talking about here? The only ones closely observed have had a diet very short on animals. The fact that mass extinctions coincide with the arrival of hunter gatherers in North America and NZ (and several other places) imply these people gorged on a glut of animals until the animals ran out and then either adopted agriculture or went back to grubs and roots and berries.

"a characteristic reduction in stature" That would be why the beneficiaries of modern industrialised farming are so much more stunted than their hunter gatherer predecessors... oh, whoops, they aren't. Never mind it would be why a man raised as a hunter gatherer in the same part of the world as a man raised in subsistence agriculture is much taller... oh, whoops, he's shorter and weaker and knows the blame lies on being raised on grubs and berries.

Fundementally there's an out and out contradiction within the idea that something is healthy because humans evolved to eat it at some distant point in the past. If we evolved to eat x then we would continue to evolve to eat y. If we didn't evolve to eat y then we didn't evolve to eat x and you can take the whole mess of "diet we evolved for" and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

LOL @ John!

That particular bit of bad science has been refuted time and time again and yet it continues to be used by those touting very questionable diets. In fact I remember reading almost that exact passage in "The Blood Type Diet" which has been soundly disproved.

Would it help anyone to know that at least one of the people on U.S. infomercials spouting similar cr#p has spent time in prison for fraud?

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

LOL John, you crack me up somettimes.

With Respect
Jeff(fuzzy30)

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Great post John, it got me thinking
I have to admit that personally I react better to grain than beef, but milk I still can do without. In y clinical experience people react to different stuff depending on their internal workings. My general advice is that if you can eat it(fruit/vegetable) raw, it's probably good for you(in moderation). Of course pesticides does influence that statement a bit.
Would society today manage without grain? To me it seems that most civilizations are founded on good agriculture, and grain is very central to ours.

“	hose touting very questionable die	”

An ex-colleague is a very intelligent woman but a sucker for every diet fad going. At one point she got on a diet that involved eating no meat, and lots of fruit, because we are descended from primates that eat no meat (wrong) and lots of fruit so obviously what's good for them is best for us... After a week of this nonsense (and eating not much but a kilo of grapes in a day) she went to the doctor with abdominal pains (surprise surprise). He diagnosed fruit fermenting into alcohol in her digestive track and prescribed a week without fruit, not even a bannana, before returning to a normal diet.

“	personally I react better	”

Exactly! That's what counts. Work out for yourself what is best for you. Any study done on just one person would be immediately discounted. Why? Because people are different and there are numerous outside factors to consider. That being the case it's best not to pay too much attention to whatever the latest research grabbing headlines claims and stick to what makes you healthy. If you have reasonable self awareness, particularly with an internal practice, you should be able to work out what to avoid.

“	My general advice is that if you can eat it(fruit/vegetable) raw, it's probably good for you(in moderation)	”

Yup, centuries of diets, decades of research... and the all we really know is it's best to eat fresh fruit and veg.

Pesticides you can get around by going organic but they still do stuff like wax coat fruit, or wash it with bleach solution. (Not sure I object to the washing, do you think the fruit pickers wash their hands after going to the bathroom or even go to the bathroom rather than entertain themselves watering some one's fruit?) There is some evidence there are significantly more nutrients in fruit and vegetables when they're fresh and in season.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

There is one thing that is good for you but cannot be eaten raw, and that's beans (and most legumes, which includes peanuts). Otherwise I agree with the idea that it's good for you if it can be eaten raw, as far as veggies & fruits are concerned.

Meat, not so much.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

sarcasm is the tool of the uninformed.

point #1, it's certain that increased population density contributed to increased rates of infectious disease.


point #2; untrue. many of the hunter-gatherer societies studied eat up to a pound of animal products daily throughout much of the year.

point #3; untrue. only in the last 100 years, since the advent of re-introducing vitamins and minerals back into food (fortification) has human kind begun to regain our stature. go back 150 years and the average heights of males was generally 5' 6" or less.

as an example, when white "settlers" first reached the US mid-west, the plains indians, who's diets consisted primarily of buffalo (i.e. meat), were the tallest people on the planet.

as late as the 1950's even in the west, most people ate what would be considered a "low carb diet", that is, less than 50% of total daily calories coming from carbohydrate.

if you'd like to see three sources of information who are proponents of "paleo-lithic" style eating, who certainly aren't convicted criminals check out these three guys (who also happen to be very smart);

art devany, Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of California

michael eades, md

loren cordain, phd Professor in the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University

I suggest reading guns, germs, and steel, by Jared Diamond. It covers the switch from hunter gatherer to agriculture in detail. It does not claim, BTW that agriculture immediately led to a healthier diet. It does, however, point out the role other factors played, how significant those were, and it does it from the unique perspective of extensive personal observation of hunter gatherers and tribes recently switched to agriculture.

“	many of the hunter-gatherer societies studied eat up to a pound of animal products daily throughout much of the year.	”

Where do these hunter gatherer "societies" live? The only ones I know of were up in the bush in back of milne bay and have probably been done away with in the minerals/timber free for all since. They most certainly did not eat a pound of meat a day. Some aboriginal tribes were hunter gatherers although several practiced agriculture in the form of fish "farms" in order to ... get more meat because it was deficient from their hunter-gatherer diet.

Even were the average diet a pound of meat a day (which I don't believe for a second) it does not prove grain was the cause of all ills that followed.

“	since the advent of re-introducing vitamins and minerals back into food (fortification)	”

I don't think there's a link. You might as well say "since the development of the vaccuum cleaner"...

“	the average heights of males was generally 5' 6" or less	”

That's taller than the average for a hunter-gatherer.

“	the plains indians, who's diets consisted primarily of buffalo (i.e. meat), were the tallest people on the planet.	”

I thought many of those tribes, although nomadic, were not purely hunter gaterers but supplemented their diet with some forms of agriculture.

No one is saying "meat is bad" what I am saying is that the idea hunter gatherers lived in some healthy eden gorging themselves on meat until the snake of wheat was introduced is ridiculous. It doesn't fit the known facts about hunter gatherers globally, it doesn't fit the population explosion that followed the introduction of wheat, and the arguments given confuse, for example, the effects of poor storage technique leading to sand in grain with the effects of eating wheat and the effects of social development with the effects of diet.

All reliable evidence points to people who regularly eat fresh fruit and vegetables as part of a varied diet as being generally healthiest.

“	as late as the 1950's even in the west, most people ate what would be considered a "low carb diet", that is, less than 50% of total daily calories coming from carbohydrate.	”

Not really sure what relevance that has.

“	check out these three guys (who also happen to be very smart);	”

They still can't get over the inherent contradiction in their argument.

I'll pass - I spent most of the first 18 years of my life living with a tribe that had been slightly beyond hunter gatherers but with stone age technology until the 1930's. I saw the diet and it's results, and any one touting it as a healthy way of life is an idiot.

Mentioning no names but individuals even more highly qualified than the ones you quote occaisionally contacted us requesting help accessing a "previously uncontacted tribe" and requesting advice on "booking 4 star accomodation". You can keep your experts.

A word regarding archeologists and the study of past diets. Go visit an archeological dig and pay attention to the phrase "fit with the site picture" and then decide how much credit facts get. Take a simple example - archeologists - as well qualified as the people you quote - spent decades basing all their assumptions about stone tools on how long it would take them, using a stone axe like a metal one, to cut down a tree. Then one day they happened to see some one using one properly...

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Who is saying that all the hunter-gatherers live as our ancestors used to? I would assume their lifestyle meant they ate more or less what was available. Aren't their average around 35-45? I know very little about these things so pardon me if I'm wrong.

I think Elements hit the nail on the head there. The term Hunter/Gather, as discribed on wikipeda, is "A hunter-gatherer society is one whose primary subsistence method involves the direct procurement of edible plants and animals from the wild, foraging and hunting without significant recourse to the domestication of either."

This means that they eat seasonal fruits and vegtables, and other plants that the found eatable. As well as animals that happened to be in the area. If I remember right from school there where months where animal meat was scarce and storage capability was not eactly up to par with our refrigerators of today.

Bottom line is that eating fresh fruits and vegtables, or as fres as possible since going out and picking them yourself is not always an option, a proper porportion of meats, nuts, and legumes will lead to a healthier life than not.

IMO if people want to bash on anything that we humans commonly eat I would suggest the overly processed foods that are so readily available.

“	IMO if people want to bash on anything that we humans commonly eat I would suggest the overly processed foods that are so readily available.	”

Amen to that. The "fortification" of foods is one of the direct predecessors to the Wonder Bread diet most westerners eat.

While living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle is something I wouldn't wish on anyone here (it's probably as much fun as being a freelance writer with no fallback job), I challenge those with the means to just try and live the way people did a century ago.

No refrigeration (unless you were lucky enough to live in a place where you could stock an icehouse).

Food storage consisting of packing in salt, pickling, or using that newfangled "canning" method.

Buying only fresh vegetables and fresh-killed meat (that day), or growing/ hunting/ slaughtering your own.

Cleaning carpets without a vacuum.

Cleaning house with only lye-based soaps & white vinegar.

Doing your laundry in the backyard with, at best, a hand pump to get water.

Being considered well-to-do and "modern" because you have enough clothes to do laundry, a hand pump in the backyard, plenty of vinegar in the house, and enough education to know how to safely can fruits & vegetables.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

been there...

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Running water is da bomb, ain't it?

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...