good sources of protien for vegetarians?

“	Brief periods of soy intake decrease testosterone production by 76% percent, and an inverse association of soy intake and testosterone levels was discovered. So, males are basically depriving themselves of their most important hormone by eating soy, and nuts won't stop that effect, neither your nuts nor walnuts. This effect is additive with natural estorgen production. It also decreases the thyroid hormone T4, which is important for all immune reactions, and, in vitro, has been shown to kill testicular cells.	”

!!! *Panics and throughs bottle of soy milk out the window*

“	And another nifty thing: diets lacking in satured fats lead to lower testosterone production. So, not only will you be decreasing your testostreone through soy consumption, but also through the lack of satured fat.	”

That reminds me of a skit from "The Man Show" where they decided that people were tougher "back in the day" and that was b/c they ate more gravy than we do now! lol.... So they went around serving gravy smoothies. lol

Okay, back on topic now...

Thanks for the info Philip....learn something new every day!

__________________
The E.S.Q.

Man, Bad news for soy. And I thought it was suppose to be so good for you.

__________________
-Ben

i used to drink it because i read something about it preventing male baldness...bring on the baldness now, i say! lol

__________________
The E.S.Q.

Yeah, the (especially US) goverment hipped it up big time some years ago. The main reason was that it was cheap, and could be used as a meat replacement. Many public schools added it to hamburgers or similar meat because it was much cheaper than the real thing, and increased profits a good deal.

__________________
You only die once. But it lasts such a long time.-French proverb

Very good post Philip!

Jeff(fuzzy30)

__________________
The heart is the same as heaven and earth
visit www.fuzzydragonmartialartssupplies.com

Thanks. I try my best.

__________________
You only die once. But it lasts such a long time.-French proverb

and you're doing great little Swiss boy..

thnx a lot for your posts!

Chief108

__________________

“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka

'In conclusion: Vegetarian diets suck. Sure, you can stay healthy, but if you're not after that extremly lean (or should I say starved?) look, meat offers many benefits. And, include at least eggs and dairy in your diet. '

I take it, then, that you have no personal experience of being vegetarian and can't cook? I was veggie for 8 years, and you're right that getting a balance needs a bit more intentionality to it, but it's not that hard. There is no need for any animal products, but you do have to think more about what you eat. Believe me, there are plenty of fat vegetarians (and some muscular athletic
vegans like Carl Lewis)

T

yup - I've managed fine these last 11 years

just looking to add a bit more protien now, and wanted to see what people could recommend in addition to dairy produce, eggs, tofu & quorn

As Storm Mountain pointed out a while ago, and as I recently read on T-Nation (I think), the findings on negative effects of soy sourced protein vary greatly between various researchers. Some say it'll turn you into a girlie-man, which I don't entirely buy, others say its not quite as good of a source of protein as whey but provides other health benefits that whey and other animal proteins don't offer.

Personally, if you want to use whey use whey, if you want soy go soy. Won't really cause any issues either way. Personally I use whey and casein, as they taste and mix better then soy to me.

__________________
The nature and purpose of the Martial Way is universal. All selfish desires should be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training.

[quote=Philip] 1. as well as most other mammals, CAN NOT digest plants. We have to rely on bacteria in our digestive tracts to do the digestion for us. This is immensly inefficient

2. On to soy. Soy contains the isofalvines genistein and daidzein, which are both phytoestrogens. Which means, they bind readily to estrogen receptors in your body.
There are alpha and beta receptors, the important one being the alpha receptor. It is associated with breast tumors, as well as other diseases, and high water retention and bodyfat, which can both be unhealthy and definitely don't look good.
Also, it plays a significant role in hormon production. Brief periods of soy intake decrease testosterone production by 76% percent, and an inverse association of soy intake and testosterone levels was discovered. So, males are basically depriving themselves of their most important hormone by eating soy.
(sources can be found here.


3.In conclusion: Vegetarian diets suck. Sure, you can stay healthy, but if you're not after that extremly lean (or should I say starved?) look, meat offers many benefits.


In Response,

1. Granted that bacteria aid in digestion of plants (as well as almost any other food, I might add). However, to conclude from this fact that humans and other mammals cannot digest plants is a fallacy of isolated association, meaning that in fact the bacteria is PART of the human, and therefore in truth the human CAN digest plants VIA the bacteria. An analogous example would be to say that a car cannot digest diesel, because the motor is needed to combust the diesel...in fact the motor is PART of the car, and therefore the car CAN combust diesel VIA the motor.

2. You make a good point about the ill-effects of soy, however they do not completely negate the benefits that have been proven. The key with soy (as with nearly every other food) is MODERATION. Testosterone is a good hormone, but it is not a hormone to which we can unilaterally say "the more the better" as you suggest. High testosterone levels have been linked to many physical and emotional instabilities (take a look at hardcore bodybuilders and athletes who abuse steroids and die early). In light of this, soy IN MODERATION should be viewed as a testosterone REGULATOR. A little soy here and there is not going to turn you into a woman, and in fact will give you the benefits of testosterone regulation that can help in physical health (ie: preventing prostate cancer through it's estrogenic qualities) and emotional health (preventing bursts of anger and violence that are associated with high testosterone levels). Your sources for this information (t-nation or testosterone-nation for those who havn't visited the site) reflect this bias that more testosterone is good. In conclusion, one should not view testosterone as an isolated and unilaterally-good hormone in regards to health. Males naturally have BOTH testosterone AND estrogen in their bodies, and to completely discount a food (ie soy) because of estrogenic qualities is unsound. Again, moderation is key.

3. I had to quote this last part because I think that it exemplifies the modern bias with vegetarians and vegans today, namely that they are skinny wimps who look "starved". I am neither a vegetarian nor a vegan (I eat dairy and low fat meats like chicken and fish occasionally), yet I was a vegan for a long time and found it to be a valid diet choice that is nowhere near enducing the stereotypical "starved" look. I speak from experience and knowledge gained from research. I know that many on this site can attest to the muscle-building qualities of plant proteins (I've heard Mike Mahler's name mentioned a few times...google him or go to veganbodybuilding.com and browse some pictures to jolt yourself out of the illusion that vegans and vegetarians are skinny wimps...if you are so inclined).

Wait, wait, WAIT!! Soy decreases testosterone? Aaaww, MAAAAN! I drink soy milk with b'fast everyday! Not b/c I am a vegetarian, but b/c milk makes me fart like a horse...Motjclan, you say bring on the baldness, I say bring on the gas!!

__________________
Man for Sale: House-broken, current vaccinations, almost never humps your leg.

“	Originally Posted By: stumpy_32 In Response, 1. Granted that bacteria aid in digestion of plants (as well as almost any other food, I might add). However, to conclude from this fact that humans and other mammals cannot digest plants is a fallacy of isolated association, meaning that in fact the bacteria is PART of the human, and therefore in truth the human CAN digest plants VIA the bacteria. An analogous example would be to say that a car cannot digest diesel, because the motor is needed to combust the diesel...in fact the motor is PART of the car, and therefore the car CAN combust diesel VIA the motor. 2. You make a good point about the ill-effects of soy, however they do not completely negate the benefits that have been proven. The key with soy (as with nearly every other food) is MODERATION. Testosterone is a good hormone, but it is not a hormone to which we can unilaterally say "the more the better" as you suggest. High testosterone levels have been linked to many physical and emotional instabilities (take a look at hardcore bodybuilders and athletes who abuse steroids and die early). In light of this, soy IN MODERATION should be viewed as a testosterone REGULATOR. A little soy here and there is not going to turn you into a woman, and in fact will give you the benefits of testosterone regulation that can help in physical health (ie: preventing prostate cancer through it's estrogenic qualities) and emotional health (preventing bursts of anger and violence that are associated with high testosterone levels). Your sources for this information (t-nation or testosterone-nation for those who havn't visited the site) reflect this bias that more testosterone is good. In conclusion, one should not view testosterone as an isolated and unilaterally-good hormone in regards to health. Males naturally have BOTH testosterone AND estrogen in their bodies, and to completely discount a food (ie soy) because of estrogenic qualities is unsound. Again, moderation is key. 3. I had to quote this last part because I think that it exemplifies the modern bias with vegetarians and vegans today, namely that they are skinny wimps who look "starved". I am neither a vegetarian nor a vegan (I eat dairy and low fat meats like chicken and fish occasionally), yet I was a vegan for a long time and found it to be a valid diet choice that is nowhere near enducing the stereotypical "starved" look. I speak from experience and knowledge gained from research. I know that many on this site can attest to the muscle-building qualities of plant proteins (I've heard Mike Mahler's name mentioned a few times...google him or go to veganbodybuilding.com and browse some pictures to jolt yourself out of the illusion that vegans and vegetarians are skinny wimps...if you are so inclined).	”

Let me just reply to this again.

1.Your analogy is actually much better than what I wrote...at proving my point. It is indeed similar to a car engine, in terms of inefficiency. A normal engine can put out about 30% of the potential energy that is put into it. The bacteria similar because it is not their goal to produce usable products for us, but for them, and therefore they are inefficient.

2. I'm not even going to fully reply to this. Read my post again. I never stated anything about "the more test the better" or that estrogen is evil. I described the effects of excess estrogen, which will already occur at low levels of soy intake. Oh, and the "proven benefits" spread by the goverment have never been proven either. Again, read my source.

3. There are probably many normal vegans. But, I seem to see a disproportionate amount of people looking so skinny it seems unhealthy on that site. And if you believe that the guys with the bodybuilder phyisiques built them without steroids and supplements you'll probably be wrong on at least 50% and probably 100% respectively. You don't have to believe me, but I'll just give you another source

__________________
You only die once. But it lasts such a long time.-French proverb

Interesting.

I have often thought about hemp protein as a way to increase vegetable protein - and got as far as starting a thread on it here. I have heard good things about it. The other alternative for the vegetarian/vegan would be mushroom protein... not tried it, don't know of any research on it.

I suspect that protein is perhaps a little less significant than many people think. I eat plenty of meat protein, not body builder quantities but much more than the vegetarians I see in yoga classes who have far more muscular builds than myself.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Originally Posted By: Philip Let me just reply to this again. 1.Your analogy is actually much better than what I wrote...at proving my point. It is indeed similar to a car engine, in terms of inefficiency. A normal engine can put out about 30% of the potential energy that is put into it. The bacteria similar because it is not their goal to produce usable products for us, but for them, and therefore they are inefficient. 2. I'm not even going to fully reply to this. Read my post again. I never stated anything about "the more test the better" or that estrogen is evil. I described the effects of excess estrogen, which will already occur at low levels of soy intake. Oh, and the "proven benefits" spread by the goverment have never been proven either. Again, read my source. 3. There are probably many normal vegans. But, I seem to see a disproportionate amount of people looking so skinny it seems unhealthy on that site. And if you believe that the guys with the bodybuilder phyisiques built them without steroids and supplements you'll probably be wrong on at least 50% and probably 100% respectively. You don't have to believe me, but I'll just give you another source	”

I don't want to start a "food fight" with you or anyone else on this site, however I do want to clear up the popular misconceptions about a vegan/vegetarian diet that are so prevalent in today's "T-Nation" subscribers.

1. If you re-read my post the main point was that this inefficiency (which I grant) affects all food sources that enter the digestive tract. They are not selective on mere plant forms of protein, but also affect the assimilation of meat proteins. Additionally, meat protein often contains other forms of bacteria inherent to the meat itself that further hinder digestion beyond that of the symbiotic bacteria that you describe. Thus, to use this inefficiency as an argument against plant-based proteins is to completely discount it's affect on meat proteins.

2. No, but you implied it through your universal discounting of soy benefits as regulators of testosterone. Your initial post presented a clear-cut dichotomy of soy as bad and testosterone as good. I am simply trying to re-define soy as a "regulator" of testosterone and not a "destroyer". Soy is not something that is always a malevolant eradicator of testosterone, and conversely testosterone should not always be "saved" from regulation by estrogenic compounds such as soy. For someone stricken with colon cancer (one of the most common forms of cancer among men today, and one that has often been attributed to a high meat-intake diet), an increase in soy products is often recommended. As far as your doubting of the "proven benefits spread by the government", if you take the time to look beyond your Testosterone-Nation source (so far the only thing that you have quoted, and not a scientific source in the loosest sense of the term), you might find a non-biased side of the coin that lists a growing body of independent scientific research that supports soy without reference to scaremonger conspiracy theories about government control: " The problem, researchers say, is that isoflavones are phytoestrogens, a weak form of estrogen that could have a drug-like effect in the body. This may be pronounced in postmenopausal women, and some studies suggest that high isoflavone levels might increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer. Research data, however, are far from conclusive, and some studies show just the opposite--that under some conditions, soy may help prevent breast cancer." , "Unlike the controversy surrounding soy isoflavones, available evidence on soy protein benefits is much clearer. That's why FDA limited its health claim to foods containing intact soy protein. The claim does not extend to isolated substances from soy protein such as the isoflavones genistein and daidzein.", "Margo Woods says her concerns are centered mainly on isoflavone supplements and that she's "much more comfortable" recommending soy as a whole food.", and finally, a good martial analogy that supports my initial recommendation of balance regarding soy: "Isoflavones are like other estrogens in that they are two-edged swords, conferring both benefits and risks." Non-Testosterone Nation Source: http://ibscrohns.about.com/library/fda/blsoyclaims.htm

3. "And if you believe that the guys with the bodybuilder phyisiques built them without steroids and supplements you'll probably be wrong on at least 50% and probably 100% respectively. You don't have to believe me, but I'll just give you another source"...Ah, idle statistical speculation. I will repeat myself: If you are smart in combining plant proteins there is no reason why you shouldn't build just as much muscle as someone ingesting meat. By the way, where did I ever say that "the guys with the bodybuilder physiques" built them without steroids or supplementation? Leaving steroids out of the picture, let's compare some smart vegans like Carl Lewis or Mike Mahler to natural bodybuilders who don't use steroids. Comparing these two, I think anyone would agree that building muscle on a plant-based diet is just as valid as on a meat-based one.

Anyway, enough of my rant. This is not meant to be any kind of personal attack, but I do get frustrated when people continue to bolster the "skinny vegetarian" stereotype. Aside from this, you did bring up a very good point about soy. It definately isn't a "wonder food" that should be ingested indiscriminately, yet on the other hand it should not be completely avoided because of fear propagated by sites like T-Nation. Again, balance is key.