eagle claw for officers/xing yi for cannon fodder?

“	Originally Posted By: li xiao long If Yue Fei did invent eagle claw	”

he did...
I told ya so didn't I???

“	Originally Posted By: li xiao long does eagle claw have any weapons?	”

duhhh....

“	Originally Posted By: li xiao long Is it like how I consider XY in that its weapons first, unarmed later?	”

nope...
after learning the basic skills it has weapons and unarmed training going hand-in-hand tho

Chief108

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all hail Martyr Fakka

eagle claw was the troops, and Xing yi was for the officers.

I've just re-read this thread and saw li xiao long's query about Yue Fei Quan.

It just so happens that's what I practise.

I haven't seen (or read) enough (about) Eagle Claw to be able to comment on its relationship to YFQ but I can say for certain that Xing Yi is very closely related to ours. As i understand it, Xing Yi is slightly more linear, amongst other things. I'm not 100 percent sure as to the exact origins of the two arts though. I'd need to learn more about Xing Yi I think..

We actually refer to our art as Yet Chia (Yue Jia) and I'm told it's what Yue Fei taught to his family while Xing Yi (or a similar pre-cursor art) was taught to his soldiers.

Tom

Hi Tommy,

Dont suppose you're in the UK? Would be interesting to meet up and compare notes.

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Fraid not. I'm down in South Australia. But it would be interesting for sure.

One of our seniors has actually moved to the UK but I'm not sure where..

Here's a little rough info though:

Yue Chia Quan

The following information has come mostly from our friend Mr G.Goh, who is a practitioner of Yue Chia Quan. Among the many stories of the origins of Xing Yi there is a recurring theme that it was descended in some way from General Yue Fei of the Sung Dynasty. The precursor martial arts (whatever they were) have therefore sometimes been referred to as Yue Fei Quan (Yue Fei Boxing) and Yue Chia Quan (Yue Family Boxing).

After the execution of Yue Fei and his son, their family art was banned. Someone called something like Ngok was one of Yue Fei's disciples and he fled after the execution along with his fellow disciples who dispersed around the country. There are no records of what happened after that for about 100 years.

The next part of the history begins with Lau Yin Fu, whose father had been killed, and Lau therefore sought revenge. Lau Yin Fu travelled into the mountains of Sichuan where he met and became a disciple of Master Bak Mei, one of the elders of the Shaolin temple who had survived after it was destroyed by the government. Although Lau learned from a Buddhist, the main art that he was taught seemed to be based on the Daoist tradition. Master Bak Mei would not tell him the name of the art and always laughed off or avoided Lau Yin Fu's questions about the origin of the art that he was learning.

After 8 years of study Lau Yin Fu thought he was ready to leave, so he attacked his teacher from behind. Bak Mei didn't know that it was his disciple who was attacking him and accidentally tore off Lau Yin Fu's nose. After this point Lau Yin Fu became known by the nickname "Nose-less Tiger". Realising that Bak Mei was still way beyond his level, Lau Yin Fu returned to his study and continued to study with Bak Mei for another 5 years. At the end of this period Bak Mei eventually revealed the name of the art to him - Yue Chia Quan (Yueh Family Boxing), also known as Yue Fei Quan (Yue Fei Boxing).

It is worth noting that Master Bak Mei is today widely known as the founder of Bak Mei Chuan, a fast and efficient hard-soft style, but some sources indicate that Bak Mei Chuan was developed by another of his disciples and named after him out of respect, rather than being exactly what Bak Mei taught. In any event, some similarities can be observed between Bak Mei Chuan, Yue Chia Chuan and Xing Yi.

After completing his study with Master Bak Mei, Master Lau Yin Fu set up his own school and was able to get revenge for his father's death. Lau passed the art down to his descendants in the Lau family, who have taken pride in maintaining an accurate transmission. In one version of the history, ten of the masters in this Yue Chia Quan lineage are named, but there are several names missing. A fuller version of the lineage exists but Mr Goh has not as yet seen it. The current head of the style is Grandmaster Lau Yoke Lian.

Yue Chia Quan does not have five elements forms as part of the art, but then again neither do all styles of Xing Yi. It does not have so many animals as Xing Yi, but there are Eagle and Tiger in Yue Chia Quan. The only weapon used is the spear. The principles between the two arts are strikingly similar - fairly linear, power generation from the whole body, few overt kicks, and attacking rather than defensive in nature. Like Xing Yi, Yue Chia Quan is also a battlefield art - not for self defence. There are also some similarities between Yue Chia Quan and Bak Mei Quan, which is to be expected as they were taught by different disciples of the same master.



Feel free to ask any more questions!

Tom

Out of interest, GM Lau Yoke Lian is our Sifu but he can only come out here from Malaysia periodically. We're extremely fortunate!

Hi Tom,

Thanks for providing the information - if I can ask questions then:

1) What do you start beginners off with? i.e. in XY it's the 5 element fists. What are the 'basics' of Yu Fei Chuan?

2) How do you get them into fighting? 2 man drills, light sparring or what?

Many thanks, I love hearing about this rare style. Also - can you find out where the UK guy is/put me in contact?

Thanks.

It's kind of hard to 'classify' the basics per se. For the first month beginners practise our horse stance, the first moving stance and the basic punch. Second month - next moving stance is added. Third month - third stance etc. Next strike around 3 to 4 month mark. Pretty rough schedule.. It's exceptionally slow learning but not altogether complex. It just makes for a much more solid foundation to build on. I've been doing it for 16 months and I'm only on my 9th technique (and nowhere near a form) and I train hard everyday.

We also do isometric training (kind of a standing meditation but all muscles tight) for 20 minutes at the start of each session in order to harden tendons, ligaments and muscles (in that order). I do no weight training at all but my muscles have grown and hardened a huge amount.

As far as fighting, we don't spar or anything at all. Occasionally we'll practise applications with a partner. We just train full speed and power as reflex actions at all times. It's particularly effective though. A friend of mine (another YFQ practitioner) will occasionally spar a little if we've had a few beers and feeling game and it's pretty intense. It's like Xing Yi in that there's no retreat. It's full force forwards using the entire body as a weapon. We tend to call it quits very early on..

Tom

Sorry I should clarify something. It's not altogether complex in the early stages but obviously the depth increases a lot as one progresses. I'm still very much at the surface but I'll occasionally get a glimpse of what's contained further on.

Thanks - can you describe how the first punch is done? Is there a picture online somewhere that looks like it?

Thanks again.

Hi Tom,

You got interesting info going on there. Allow me some questions so we can figure out exactly how similar it is to xingyi.

1- Do you know of any principles, or rules of movement that never change no matter what type of technique you do?

2- Do you guys have a "mother stance"....the standard posture that all movement is based on? example: Xingyi has Santi.

3- Can you describe more or less the essence of your animal forms? what are they based on? How do you do your Tiger?

Its a real shame that you cant trace back your lineage...its always good to know the path that it took since the beginning, just to understand a bit of its development.Thanks for the info.

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“	Originally Posted By: aqira only close guards of an emperor would be taught anything advanced. They needed to protect the elite, can't have the commoners with any real skill that could be used against you. and the cost and time to train anyone would be spent on only those of the most important use. eagle claw can be very advanced at higher levels but that takes a lot of study and work..I understand it was the preferred art for many years for protection of the court and high officials. Through a lot of history some form of chin-na has been at the core of the skillset of elite guards	”

But at the same time these bodyguards had to be quickly trained. There is no point in training someone for 10 years while the Emperor is sitting around twiddling his thumbs.

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Hi Tom

You must train at Norwood I gather. I also train in Yeuh fei, brought over by Sifu Li in the 70's from Malaysia. If indeed you do train at Norwood, a guy from my class visited your class not too long ago and showed us some of the techniques etc. Looked very strong and powerful, very impressive, with an apparent focus on developing strength by holding postures for a period and then releasing the power into the next move (seemed to sacrifice movement over strength?). We tend to focus more on moving forms and patterns, and beginners are thrown into the deep end so to speak. We also practice the isometric (hang kung) sequence but at the end of class.

Lynton

I don't think the debate should be around which martial art is the more advanced, they were obviously made for different reasons, Xing I is most obviously a battlefield art suited to foot soldiers using spear and sword, the mainstay of Yueh Fei's army. I don't know much about Eagle Claw but I suspect it is not suited to pitched battles with ranks of men closely fighting together.

Also maybe the Eagle from bear-eagle Xing I is different in style to Eagle Claw because they were based upon different creatures, there are many different types of eagle in the world and I'm sure quite a few in China.

I don't know enough about Xing I yet to comment further.

Hey Lynton,


I train in Kensington but I'm assuming we're both thinking of the same school. Are you in the North Adelaide group?

I think I know what you mean about the movement vs strength thing but I wouldn't have said we sacrifice movement. We do hold the postures for a few seconds before continuing and we do aim for power but that's to ensure precision of movement and maximum power. Doesn't seem to be much point moving rapidly if the power isn't there. That said, we do move quickly when we need to.

I have a feeling a few of our guys originally learnt from Sifu Li in the early 90s.

Is your senior instructor P. Keelan? I've seen the website - it'd be interesting to pop over to your class sometime.

Tom