qigong in xing yi.

“	Originally Posted By: Xu. Gaoshi, How then do you explain the link found in most xing i between the organs and the movements of the fists. and if you refute this connection, on what personal basis do you do this. In other words what is your experience and training; also under whom. cheers Xu	”

What do any of the things you mentioned matter when evaluating his theory? Why is "who he studied from" even important? If he studied from teacher X but not teacher Y, would his claims then be automatically true (or false)?

None of what you mentioned matters. Theories are supported by evidence and persuasive argument only.

Dave C.

In my opinion there are two ways, for me, that would give someone’s statements a validation. One is to give evidence of your claim, which he has not done, and the other is state your background, so that a better judgement can made of the statement or it can be dismissed. As he has given no evidence for his claim I though it would be interesting for him to share his experience, which may shed some light on his position. I personally think it matters a lot who you study with, as I would much quicker take note of an unsupported claim made by someone who studied under a reputable master than some one studying under Mr Joe blogs from Halifax for a month.

thank you for his response

Xu.

- I dare say he has forgotten many times what you know. As for who he studies for... Some of he best in todays world. Not to metion he has taught longer than you have studies from your profile!

If I was him - I wouldn't even reply to you - your original post was rather rude and disrespectful.

Like a kid demanding an adult to proove to him he's a man.

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I am guessing he train Gao Style with Luo Dexiu from his profile. Very reputable teacher - excellent Xing Yi and Ba Gua - some of ther best around ... no doubt there.

regards
chris

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Allen knows me all too well but I am trying to be kinder on the web. However Dave is right, just because I studied with reputable teachers doesn't make my ability or opinions any better, only I can do that. For the record my main teachers of note are: presently Luo Dexiu, formerly Bruce Frantzis.
"Xu",
What evidence would you require? Historically you won't find the "organ" references in Xingyi's forbears. This was brought to the art, I believe, by Li Luoneng. As example you will hear people refer to Xingyi's half step as the "bamboo half step" Why is this? Because the phrase for half step in ban bu. So Li may have used these references as shorthand. Chris said it doesn't matter if we say organ or (in my words) energetic function of the system, i.e. respiration. In that the energetic function involves much more than just the lump of flesh inside the thorasic cavity it doesn't hold up, by my way of thinking, that these particular movements would affect the energetic functions more than any other. Rather it is more effective to think of the five fists as vectors or directions that one can use internal power:
pi--up to down
tzuan--down to up
beng--back to front
pao--inside to outside
heng--outside to inside. Therfore ANY movement involving these action can be called by these names and may or may not affect the "organ" system.
YMMV,
Buddy

Nicely posted Buddy

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Thank you Gaoshi,

However I am still not convinced that they have no connection. And Mr Frantzis seems to also link the fists with the organs commenting that each fist positively affects it's corresponding organ.

Cheers

As you might imagine I'm not very concerned about convincing you. Kumar said several things about which we may disagree or which I know to be...questionable. That said I find much of his material, particularly his neigongs, to be excellent. But let me turn things around on you. Give me evidence, apart from what you heard, that there is such a connection. If you understand TCM a bit and history I think you'd see there are no organs as such.

“	Originally Posted By: Xu. Thank you Gaoshi, However I am still not convinced that they have no connection. And Mr Frantzis seems to also link the fists with the organs commenting that each fist positively affects it's corresponding organ. Cheers	”

And Mr. Frantzis' proof or persuasive argument would be what exactly?

The reason you're not convinced is because you're only looking for an appeal to an authority. In other words, famous teacher X said something which you know nothing about (judging from your posts) and you take it as an article of faith, which must be defended against non-believers. The only thing you will seemingly accept as evidence is a statement to the contrary made by even more famous teacher Y.

Buddy was right to put the burden of proof on you because he will be unlikely to prove that something doesn't exist. It's almost impossible to prove a negative, which is why the burden of proof is on those who are making the claim. People who make claims can't just turn around and say "well, prove unicorns (etc.) don't exist."

Dave C.

Maybe at one point they said this feels like it's to do with digestion , and then later when they knew where the stomach was and what it did they said oh it's probably to do with the stomach . It all seems like semantics anyway and theres no need to be so pedantic about it.

Nice post Dave ... dearey me, I'm obviously becoming soft in my old age.

I'd probably have to throw my hat in the ring with the basis of xingyi having been developed before the connection with the five elements having been made. Cf. some of the oldest forms where only 3 fists are described (chinafrominside would be a good place to look).

Of course, this doesn't mean that to talk of the now 5-elements in such terms is entirely non-sensical. Could we agree that practicing the things does stuff to the body, and that being hit by them hurts?

RT

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Hehehe Rob! We could, but then we wouldnt be in for such a lively discussion now would we?

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“	Originally Posted By: RobT Nice post Dave ... dearey me, I'm obviously becoming soft in my old age.	”

Nah, you're just being nice.

According to the "three fists" theory that you mention, the first three evolved into the pi, beng, and pao quan that we know of today and the later two fists (zuan and heng) were added to make XYQ "compatible" with five elements theory. I don't know if it's true or not but in my personal practice, I emphasize pi, beng, and pao.

Dave C.

Just a few small points...

1. The Chinese DID disect human bodies - however, this occured long ago (although wuxing theory might already have been in existence at that time) and they stopped doing it afterwards.

2. Wuxing theory has always had the organ correspondence - i.e. fire is always heart, etc.

That's all... :-/

Ed

“	Originally Posted By: Edededed 2. Wuxing theory has always had the organ correspondence - i.e. fire is always heart, etc.	”

That's not the question that was asked. Obviously "wuxing theory" can be connected to the organs. The question was: do the five fists of XYQ correspond to the organs via the wuxing theory. Actually, the original question was about qigong in XYQ.

Since some people here only want arguments from authority, I'll provide the following:

"For the past hundred years the martial arts have gone from the simple to more and more complex, often for no other purpose than to protract the length of time needed to study (and add to the income of the teacher). And then there has been a mystification of the martial arts, with ancient literary terms such as The Eight Trigrams, The Five Elements, The Lo River Chart, etc. This has caused practitioners to feel as though they are walking through a thick fog. It becomes difficult to distinguish truth from falsehood or to develop any accurate insights."

The author is Wang Xiang Zhai, the XYQ expert that created yiquan. As good as he may or may not be, I don't think Mr. Frantzis can hold a candle to Wang.

enjoy,
Dave C.