qigong in xing yi.

“	Since some people here only want arguments from authority, I'll provide the following: "For the past hundred years the martial arts have gone from the simple to more and more complex, often for no other purpose than to protract the length of time needed to study (and add to the income of the teacher). And then there has been a mystification of the martial arts, with ancient literary terms such as The Eight Trigrams, The Five Elements, The Lo River Chart, etc. This has caused practitioners to feel as though they are walking through a thick fog. It becomes difficult to distinguish truth from falsehood or to develop any accurate insights."	”

interesting

I like the spirit of that quote DaveC, especially the idea of getting rid of all the extra mystical doodah that has been added to what should be practical methods of pugalism first and foremost......however I think that sometimes Wang simplified XingYi a bit too much... he took out a lot of good stuff that had real value. He pruned things a bit too heavily for me (or maybe it's a case of teaching some things 'publically' and others 'privately')

Ironincally, if you look at what gets taught as Yi Quan these days they are huge systems - all sorts of different standing postures and visualisations, quite often taught as correspondence courses over the Internet.... now what was Wang saying about stringing the material out in order to add income to the teacher?

Looks like things have come full circle again!

Anyway, does anybody know what a Lo River Chart is?

“	Originally Posted By: quanping I like the spirit of that quote DaveC, especially the idea of getting rid of all the extra mystical doodah that has been added to what should be practical methods of pugalism first and foremost......however I think that sometimes Wang simplified XingYi a bit too much... he took out a lot of good stuff that had real value. He pruned things a bit too heavily for me (or maybe it's a case of teaching some things 'publically' and others 'privately') Ironincally, if you look at what gets taught as Yi Quan these days they are huge systems - all sorts of different standing postures and visualisations, quite often taught as correspondence courses over the Internet.... now what was Wang saying about stringing the material out in order to add income to the teacher? Looks like things have come full circle again! Anyway, does anybody know what a Lo River Chart is?	”

Regarding Wang, maybe taking the "xing" out wasn't such a good idea. I agree with that. The five element theory can just be tossed because it doesn't add anything and actually confuses beginners (as this thread shows).

As far as the yiquan material goes, you're right to a certain extent. But I've heard that they'll teach you all the material in six months in Beijing. They have it streamlined to that extent.

As for the Lo River chart, check out this page: http://www.fengshuibestbuy.com/HH0101-Bagua.html

It's in the middle of the page.

Dave C.

Hi,

Good topic. I think Wang's original idea of taking the "xing" out to put more emphasis on the intention part worked like a charm for him, and was an excellent idea, for HIM.
Why? well, because he already had the essence of xingyi, and knew perfectly how to manage shape with intention. But as it was mentioned, beginners have a very hard time working with only Yi from day one.

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...someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out.....fight is over....

Gaoshi,
I agree with Chris-davis. The forms actually move the organs AND they move the energy meridians. You, yourself, can feel this as you practice the fists. But you must practice enough so that you are not trapped in the external form and motion but can actually feel the internal movement. Soft gentleness is required for this to happen. A soft gentleness that goes from your outer skin to the shape of your internal organs to the marrow of your bones. You can "see and feel" this, if you look.

It is not enough to believe that the ancient Chinese had no concept of internal anatomy. They most certainly had a good knowledge of what was contained in the human body from the variety of battefield corpses cut open in various ways. But they did not base their knowledge of healing or their medical theories on dead bodies as is done in the West. They based their medical and martial theories on what they, themselves, could observe about their own living bodies, breathing, qi circulation and movement. Physical anatomy is unnecessary with such a system because each practitioner can feel the working of his own body even without naming any of the parts. Chinese medicine is based on Life and the living while Western medicine is based on Death and cold corpses.

You seem to base your ideas on the Western idea that internal organ function cannot be understood without a knowledge of anatomy. But if you will look inside yourself with your inner eye, you can "see" the various functions take place without a need to know what the various parts look like or how they function on a physical level. Try it yourself and move your breath through the five organs. As your practice improves, you can get a finer and finer skill at exploring your inner anatomy using only your Mind and your Qi.

Like so much in martial arts, the key to the puzzle is "practice". A beginner may not feel anything internally, while someone who has practiced for years can observe minute changes within himself. So, practice your Hsing-I with an open mind, a mind that is searching for answers and is curious about discoveries. After all, you are one of the most complex creatures on earth, so do not be amazed if even the Western physicians don't understand, either.

In fact, how can the Western physicians with all of their knowledge of anatomy really have any knowledge of Chinese medicine and martial arts? Regardless of their fancy theories, they don't practice or cultivate so how can they be anything but ignorant? They breathe like drowning men -- gasping and gurgling -- and cannot bring their breath up from their heels or wrap themselves in their Qi. When they grow old, they are like blocks of wood and rotten branches. What do the Western anatomists know that is worth knowing?

“	Originally Posted By: Gaoshi "The energetic systems which originate and possitively effect the specific organs" Sorry Chris. When this theory came about there was no thought of these organs. It is what we now refer to to as their functions i.e. digestion, circulation, etc. The ancient Chinese had no regard for the lumps of flesh inside the body. "what about expansion and contraction?" What about it? It's vertical or horizontal. I understand you love this idea but there is no basis for it. There is no corrolation to the wuxing theory in earlier versions of xingyi, just as in baguazhang and the trigrams. These things came about later. Piquan doesnot affect the lungs any more than beng or pao.	”

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Good observation. I know a Chinese teacher around here in San Jose, California, who claims to teach I-Chuan but his teaching is composed entirely of taking a stance and breathing from his chest and looking mysterious. The few students that he is able to round up, don't stay with him very long since he really doesn't teach anything nor does he have anything to teach. His I-Chuan is composed entirely of whatever he thinks it should be. His claim is that he has reached the highest level and all the students have to do is take a stance, breath from their chests and look mysterious and they will reach the highest level, too.

He switched to teaching I-Chuan from teaching what he called "Northern Seven Star Mantis" because nobody could claim that he wasn't doing anything like they could claim about his so-called "Mantis" (which was actually very similar to his I-Chuan).

Qi gong is okay. But for reaching a high level at NOT moving, requires a skillful knowledge of how to move. So, I think you're right about Wang's teaching method.

“	Originally Posted By: Joseph_Alb Hi, Good topic. I think Wang's original idea of taking the "xing" out to put more emphasis on the intention part worked like a charm for him, and was an excellent idea, for HIM. Why? well, because he already had the essence of xingyi, and knew perfectly how to manage shape with intention. But as it was mentioned, beginners have a very hard time working with only Yi from day one.	”

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Gaoshi,

Your main teacher is Kumar Frantzis? No wonder you have these ideas! Kumar never learned the genuine Hsing-I or Pa Kua. His Chinese teachers only taught him the minor points.

“	Originally Posted By: Gaoshi Allen knows me all too well but I am trying to be kinder on the web. However Dave is right, just because I studied with reputable teachers doesn't make my ability or opinions any better, only I can do that. For the record my main teachers of note are: presently Luo Dexiu, formerly Bruce Frantzis. "Xu", What evidence would you require? Historically you won't find the "organ" references in Xingyi's forbears. This was brought to the art, I believe, by Li Luoneng. As example you will hear people refer to Xingyi's half step as the "bamboo half step" Why is this? Because the phrase for half step in ban bu. So Li may have used these references as shorthand. Chris said it doesn't matter if we say organ or (in my words) energetic function of the system, i.e. respiration. In that the energetic function involves much more than just the lump of flesh inside the thorasic cavity it doesn't hold up, by my way of thinking, that these particular movements would affect the energetic functions more than any other. Rather it is more effective to think of the five fists as vectors or directions that one can use internal power: pi--up to down tzuan--down to up beng--back to front pao--inside to outside heng--outside to inside. Therfore ANY movement involving these action can be called by these names and may or may not affect the "organ" system. YMMV, Buddy	”

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My main teacher is Luo Dexiu. I'm not saying that there is NO connection between the wuxing and the organ systems. There may indeed be. I am saying that it is a pointless pursuit for someone interested in learning xingyiquan. Please don't presume to think you know what I know. If your interested in improving your health there are much simpler methods.

Perhaps I am a confused old man. I got the impression from this thread that Kumar Frantizes changed his name to Luo Dexiu. Is this correct?

“	Originally Posted By: Gaoshi My main teacher is Luo Dexiu. I'm not saying that there is NO connection between the wuxing and the organ systems. There may indeed be. I am saying that it is a pointless pursuit for someone interested in learning xingyiquan. Please don't presume to think you know what I know. If your interested in improving your health there are much simpler methods.	”

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Splutter ... roll on floor in hysterics.

RT

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“	Originally Posted By: RobT Splutter ... roll on floor in hysterics. RT	”

Oh, I see. I misread the post that said, "For the record my main teachers of note are: presently Luo Dexiu, formerly Bruce Frantzis."

Yeah! :-)

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To paraphrase somebody:

In Xingyi there are 5 basic ways of striking that are each tied to one of the five elements and they're called the "Five Element Fists". You can spend time examining how each fist somehow stimulates the liver, lungs, etc., etc., and how each fist "overcomes" certain other fists, and so on.

However, if you get with one of the practical teachers from the old traditions they don't spend any time musing over the relationships of the five elements to these punches... they'll tell you flat out that the five elements fist practices is the practice of five basic and different ways of releasing power.

Pinched from Jarek's site.

Di Guoyong said the following:

"It is said that Five Internal Organs (Wu Zang, Heart, Liver, Spleen, Lungs and Kidneys) are directly related to Five Elements Fists (Wu Xing Quan). However what is the exact relation? It is very difficult question to answer. Five Elements Fists are related to Metal, Wood, Water, Fire and Earth (Five Elements, Wu Xing). In TCM five internal organs are also related to Five Elements. TCM uses Yin/Yang and Five Elements as the guiding principles for its theory.

"Interactions, mutual promotion and restraint between Five Elements, their changes form the basics of TCM. Why does Xingyiquan - martial art created for practical combat - use TCM theory and terms? This is because as long as you want to be efficient in fighting, be able to use the art for martial purposes, you must be in good health.

"That's why Xingyiquan introduced Five Elements theory from TCM. Some claim there is no relation between Five Elements Fists of Xingyiquan and Five Elements theory of TCM. However in order to understand the relation it is important not to confuse Five Internal Organs of TCM with organs defined by anatomy of western medicine. TCM's organs are in fact whole systems and physiological functions of the body, and not certain parts of the body.

"Why did old masters linked Five (Elements) Fists with Five Internal Organs (as we can now read in old boxing manuals)? The reason was to "make the inside (internal organs) healthy and strengthen the outside (the body)". However the relation between Five Elements Fists and Five Elements of TCM cannot be understood by beginner. It is like explaining advanced mathematical theories to elementary school student. One has to reach a high level in Five Elements Fists practice to be able to "experience" the relation. Internal organs are governed by autonomous nervous system.

"Movements of your body can be easily controlled by your mind. However you cannot control the beat of your heart or breathing. On the other hand Qigong allows you to control these functions to some degree. In the same way in martial arts, once a high level of skill is achieved, it also allows the practitioner to have certain influence on these functions. Hence through martial arts practice involuntary movement gradually becomes voluntary.

"This of course does not mean that if you want to stop action of your heart, it will stop beating. It is rather a matter of having some mental control over these functions so that they can be improved.

"That's why we say that Chopping Fist (Pi Quan) trains Lungs, Drilling Fist (Zuan Quan) trains Kidneys, Crushing Fist (Beng Quan) trains Liver, Cannon Fist (Pao Quan) trains Heart and Horizontal Fist (Heng Quan) trains Spleen. I believe the relation is rather a connection of channels (Jingluo, network of passages through which vital energy circulates) with nervous system, intent.

"Chinese martial arts also share another feature with TCM - both systems are based on learning through one's personal experience. If you do not have this personal experience, if you have not reached certain level of skill, you will not be able to understand what the old boxing manuals talk about.

"Although you can say that you understand the words of old masters, but if you do not have the personal experience, this theoretical knowledge is worth nothing. This is the main feature of ancient Chinese culture and knowledge."

Yes - the thing is, high level masters like Di Guoyong and others in China still believe that there is some relation. Thus, either they still know something that we do not, or Westerners are objective analysts while Chinese masters are still too fuddy to reanalyze old concepts.

These masters also still believe in other old concepts, like dantian, qi, etc.

Ed

“	Originally Posted By: Edededed These masters also still believe in other old concepts, like dantian, qi, etc.	”

The idea of qi serves quite a valid clinical purpose in TCM--Its use is widespread, and research on its use as a tool has been done in China, and in the West ad nauseum. The results: A very useful concept. So Im not sure how saying that the masters "still believe" in the stuff is a bad thing...

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