qigong in xing yi.

so are the five element forms supposed to serve as a qigong exercise in xing yi?

santi.

in each elements - you have breathing coordinated but that's not as important as getting the movement down and breathing naturally. Your body will tell you when to breath if you relax.

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May the force be with y'all.

each element revitalises a certain organ energetically.

Pi = lungs,
Tsuan = kidneys
Beng = liver /spleen
Pao = Heart
Heng = stomach

(beng is sometimes just liver with Heng taking spleen - but above is the connections in my tradition.)

You can notice when performing each element that they physically move or massage these organs.

when performing for health you revitalise these organs. there are also healing sounds relating to each element.

Very nice health system - i get more out of it than i have doing Tai Chi or Ba Gua.

Hope this helps

Chris

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When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

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I'm gonna do a search of this on the net................I need knowledge

There is no corrolation between the fists and specific organs. These refer to organ systems/meridians and I find no connection.

there is a direct correlation between the 5 fists and organs. maybe not in your tradition.

Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

When this wuxing theory was developed the Chinese did not disect the human body. This theory is about certain activities, i.e digestion, inhalation/exhalation, etc and the energy that affects them, not specific organs. The movements, if they have any direct corrolation to these actions, which I doubt, have nothing to do with physical organs.

pi chuans movement opens and closes the chest cavity and massages the lungs physically during the raise drill overturn fall

Tsuan chuans movement sinks the kidneys physically.

Beng chuan moves the liver and spleen side to side physically.

Pao Chuan opens the chest area of the heart physically.

Heng shuan rotates the stomach in multiple directions physically.

This is obvious and very apparant when performing the 5 elements.

Maybe this is all co-incidence. happy training.

Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

Chris,
The wuxing theory is about energy systems, not specific organs. The organs themselves cannot move of their own accord. I can move the cavities and inner muscles around the physical organs without any specific movement. That's from the neigong I learned. Really your body movement is only vertical (spinal wave) and horizontal (hips and more particularly waist, around the central axis).

I tend to think Gaoshi is right - think about it - you just said Pi Chuan opens and closes the chest area.... and Pao Chuan opens 'the chest area of the heart'.... how is any of that different? What makes one heart and the other lungs? So, Pao Chuan doesn't effect the lungs like Pi Chuan? Why not?

If you really wanted to fully open the chest area then wouldn't making an action like drawing a bow to the side be more effective? That is physically going to open the chest area twice as much as either a Pi Chuan or a Pao Chuan.

Less mantra, more brain!

Still when you move vibrations are going to be going through the organs in different ways . Which probably helps in different ways ?.

“	The wuxing theory is about energy systems, not specific organs.	”

The energetic systems which originate and possitively effect the specific organs.

“	The organs themselves cannot move of their own accord.	”

Agreed - they move as a result of dan tien rotation and the physical motion of the element.

“	I can move the cavities and inner muscles around the physical organs without any specific movement.	”

Which in turn massages and moves the specific organs. this is nei gung as you state. but it has a direct effect on the organ in question.

“	Really your body movement is only vertical (spinal wave) and horizontal (hips and more particularly waist, around the central axis).	”

what about expansion and contraction?

“	you just said Pi Chuan opens and closes the chest area.... and Pao Chuan opens 'the chest area of the heart'.... how is any of that different? What makes one heart and the other lungs? So, Pao Chuan doesn't effect the lungs like Pi Chuan? Why not?	”

ok ... pi chuan has a opening and closing of the chest cavity where the intercostal muscles expand and contract, like a large bird opening and closing its wings to generate its power. This is a result of dan tien rotation causing spine wave. Also there is a side to side opening and closing of the lungs. Standing in san ti has one side open one closed. this is similar.

Pao has a very different movement where the whole chest cavity doesnt expand and contract with the intercostal musles. the front facia at the level of the heart, expands and contracts as you perform pao. When you gather in the form the chest is compact (but not collapsed) when you perform the pao movement the chest at the level of the heart is expanded.

I will try to take some pictures to demonstrate my point.

“	If you really wanted to fully open the chest area then wouldn't making an action like drawing a bow to the side be more effective? That is physically going to open the chest area twice as much as either a Pi Chuan or a Pao Chuan.	”

I disagree - drill up as high as you can with both hands and see what happens to your chest cavity. Drawing a bow is like Beng Chuan and you will notice this pushes the area or the liver and spleen from side to side ... like running with big strides. this motion will stretch the pectoral muscles across the chest and will pull back the scapular limiting its expanssion.

interesting discussion. strange how different lines do things.

Kindest regards
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

"The energetic systems which originate and possitively effect the specific organs"

Sorry Chris. When this theory came about there was no thought of these organs. It is what we now refer to to as their functions i.e. digestion, circulation, etc. The ancient Chinese had no regard for the lumps of flesh inside the body.

"what about expansion and contraction?"

What about it? It's vertical or horizontal. I understand you love this idea but there is no basis for it. There is no corrolation to the wuxing theory in earlier versions of xingyi, just as in baguazhang and the trigrams. These things came about later. Piquan doesnot affect the lungs any more than beng or pao.

Gaoshi,
How then do you explain the link found in most xing i between the organs and the movements of the fists. and if you refute this connection, on what personal basis do you do this. In other words what is your experience and training; also under whom.

cheers
Xu

thanks for your input Gao - our traditions obviously differ. I fail to see your points to be honest. to say it isnt the stomach - just the energetic system of digestion etc doesnt change much.

If the energetic system effects the stomach and effects this 'area' or region of the body - then whether they know it is an actual lump of flesh called the stomach or even that it exists doesnt matter.

This 'area' of the body where the stomach is will still be known and excersises developed that work it.

Even if these idea's are a later addition - again it doesnt change the fact that these methods are part of the tradition.

Regards
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin