Sparring with Xingyi

Bon Chuan · #1 (**permalink**) May 22nd, 2005, 04:50 PM

Hey all, I've just begun sparring in my Xingyi classes recently, unfortunately I've been sparring in my Karate classes for years so after the first few techniques are thrown thats what I fall back on.

Just last class I was all set up right when we began, feet were flat, hands in a good guard position. I'm against a higher rank and he starts an attack that, after a few blocks pushes me back about 3 feet. I gather myself ready to counter when he throws up his ahdns and signals me to stop, I look at myself in the mirror and I'm on the balls of my feet, hands around my head and closed into fists.

My question is if anyone knows any exercises I can do to kind of retrain myself so I can hold good xingyi posture/stance when I spar?

**GuiLongUmar** · #2 (**permalink**) May 22nd, 2005, 09:16 PM

nope, just work your drills and postures alone for a long time. You have to do it until it overrides your previous training.
Two person drills and sparring man, it takes time.

dont do anything else because it will keep dredging up stuff you are trying to get rid of.

Bon Chuan · #3 (**permalink**) May 22nd, 2005, 09:48 PM

Right, I can do that

one more thing though; Is this how Xing Yi spars against everyone? I mean when I'm sparring another Xing-yi Practicioner it feels ok and all, but against a kickboxer or karateka the flat-footedness is really getting to me. I'm used to being mobile and strong and using hips to attack, now I'm slow and strong using center/lower-back to hit things.

I'm sure I haven't fully grasped the principles yet but do I get something in exchange for the mobility I lose?

spekkioxlv · #4 (**permalink**) May 22nd, 2005, 11:14 PM

You should not be losing mobility at all. Bouncing on your toes does not give you any additional mobility. All the forms training, you learn, its not about a completed stance, but the movement you take to get there, ie. Am i turning on my heels? Am I standing upright? Am I leaning? Are my knees properly aligned. Those sort of things...

The fact is that you pretty much do all those things naturally when you walk. If you're on your toes, it is a habit that took me a very long time to eliminate. Especially comming from the WTF style TKD. If you're bouncing, then you're probably just throwing your hands. With no connection at all to the ground. I don't know much about XY, but if its anything like the style I am learning, its about total body movement. Its not about the finishing stances, like in TKD forms where a pose is held slightly. Its about the movement that precedes it. You should not in fact be losing mobility, but you should be gaining mobility. When you get that, you'll see speed will come with power. You can't seperate the two. Just think, movement to complete the stance, or the transitions. The stance itself is something you can work on at the end. You work on a baseball swing, you don't focus on the pose you hold after your done.
Thats all that I figure anyway. Real XY practioners probably have alot more to offer.

Bon Chuan · #5 (**permalink**) May 22nd, 2005, 11:59 PM

Ok, I'm kind of new to this Fa Jing thing, but I can't imagine throwing the same powerful roundhouse kicks or lunging in and out as fast as I can without being on me toes.

Does Fajing and proper stance/alignment give me the kind of lunging and kicking power I'm used to? I just don't see how I can generate rapid movemnet or directional shifts one the flat of my foot?

just practice maybe?

**RobT** · #6 (**permalink**) May 23rd, 2005, 02:49 AM

Fundamental difference between the two arts - Xingyi does not tend to lunge in and out. Hence the footwork is not geared in this sense.

Last time I sparred a karateka, we had this similar debate ... the guy was used to their points fighting format, and would consider a single contact the point at which you stopped, points awarded, then you started again. I considered it a bit of a nuisance on my way in to bury beng quan in his chest (they had very little power behind them). More often than not a slight turn of the waist on the way in changed the angles so that he was basically missing me anyway.

My understanding of Xingyi would be to look for an opening ... once you see it, smash straight on through it and beyond. As with the strikes (don't aim for the surface of the target, instead hit through the spine etc.) so too for the stepping (use the step through their center - from either door - to dominate the space and them ... and apply rather substantial amounts of power).

A good way of drilling the continuity of power that this requires is Pi quan in lines. Keep everything crisp and fire the next one off as soon as the last has completed. There is a partner variation of this exercise ... the other guy stands in a "peng" type position, you step through, take the front arm with the initial extension of pi, then complete the downards component. Done properly, it will bounce them back (no matter how good a stance they were in). You want to aim to be applying the next one before they have settled back into a good stance ... keep them bouncing along.

Next step would be to train using the elements against one another. Pi counters beng being the obvious starter. Train the partner doing the line in beng ... train partner does two beng (both countered with pi ... changing legs as you do so), you then apply beng, partner steps back and counters with pi, repeat as a drill etc. All sorts of variations that get you used to stepping forwards and back keeping form.

RT

chris_davis01 · #7 (**permalink**) May 23rd, 2005, 05:01 AM

the power of Xing yi is very different to what your used too. I would focus on Nei Gung and form work to get your tendons ready. then when you hit someone they will crumple with a 'what you do????' look on their face.

I think training sensetivity in early 2 man work is vital .... unless your testing power.

This is something that is missing from alot of Xing Yi, the ability to change, flow and listen while still constantley expressing power and taking their centre ....... pretty hard ...

cheers
Chris

**Nik** · #8 (**permalink**) May 23rd, 2005, 05:11 AM

Are you sparring barefoot ? This would explain the mobility thing, since mobility without shoes is more difficult when you have untaped bare feet, on sports ground. People are used to keep on their toes and lift the toes up a little so they don't get "stuck" with them and turn them over. Xing Yi was in old times sparred on sandy, slippy ground, so you would slip around on the soles of your shoes a bit. Mobility there doesn't get good on your toes. Try sparring with shoes using sliding steps like boxers. Of course, the approach like Rob explained is a remaining point. You don't bounce around looking to put in lead kicks to stck points. On the other hand, also in CMA, you DO circle around to look for openings, and modify positions, more in the sense of going for angles like in boxing, redirecting and going for entry.

Bon Chuan · #9 (**permalink**) May 23rd, 2005, 03:52 PM

“	Originally Posted By: RobT Fundamental difference between the two arts - Xingyi does not tend to lunge in and out. Hence the footwork is not geared in this sense. Last time I sparred a karateka, we had this similar debate ... the guy was used to their points fighting format, and would consider a single contact the point at which you stopped, points awarded, then you started again. I considered it a bit of a nuisance on my way in to bury beng quan in his chest (they had very little power behind them). More often than not a slight turn of the waist on the way in changed the angles so that he was basically missing me anyway. My understanding of Xingyi would be to look for an opening ... once you see it, smash straight on through it and beyond. As with the strikes (don't aim for the surface of the target, instead hit through the spine etc.) so too for the stepping (use the step through their center - from either door - to dominate the space and them ... and apply rather substantial amounts of power). A good way of drilling the continuity of power that this requires is Pi quan in lines. Keep everything crisp and fire the next one off as soon as the last has completed. There is a partner variation of this exercise ... the other guy stands in a "peng" type position, you step through, take the front arm with the initial extension of pi, then complete the downards component. Done properly, it will bounce them back (no matter how good a stance they were in). You want to aim to be applying the next one before they have settled back into a good stance ... keep them bouncing along. Next step would be to train using the elements against one another. Pi counters beng being the obvious starter. Train the partner doing the line in beng ... train partner does two beng (both countered with pi ... changing legs as you do so), you then apply beng, partner steps back and counters with pi, repeat as a drill etc. All sorts of variations that get you used to stepping forwards and back keeping form. RT	”

I actually did this drill for about 90 minutes today (time just flew by, I love it) and I noticed a huge difference immediately after. I was seeing and feeling opportunities on a whole new level, thanks a ton for the tip.

And Nik, that isn't the kind of problem I was asking about exactly, But I did test out if taping my feet would help at all and It did, I was slipping a little before but now it's become much easier. I just can't stand wearing shoes while sparring, another old karate habit I'll work on I guess

And I've upped my nei gung and formwork so I'll see what effect that has in the coming months.

thanx all

**StormMountain** · #10 (**permalink**) May 24th, 2005, 08:59 AM

Make sure you weight is too distributed towards your heels. Make sure it's balanced betweent he heel and ball at the very least.

**jawsman** · #11 (**permalink**) May 24th, 2005, 09:50 AM

LOL.... I've experienced the same issue as you have Bon Chuan. And it took me a while to reprogram myself as well.

I'm not sure if these will help, but give them a try.

Instead of using the balls of your feet as a means of movement, try scooting instead. Not only does this keep your foot firmly planted and rooted, but it also takes away any type of bouncing. Thus giving an illusion of movement so to speak.

Also try stepping instead of hopping. Once you've gained this principles, you'll find that moving on the balls of your foot is not as effective as you thought.

Pu_Ji_Meng · #12 (**permalink**) May 26th, 2005, 05:31 PM

Two man sensitivity training is a must, IMHO. It will help you to learn how to flow and teach you not to use the hard blocks you learned in karate. As other have stated your mobility should be at least as good as before, but I would say it should be better. Also, you should be able to produce tremendous power and you should not be elimnating your hips in your punches, if I'm reading that right. I'm not even sure if that's physically possible.

I'm not an expert on Xing Yi, I've only been studying for about 18 months, but my Shifu is a black belt in Karate as well and will often spar with me using Karate. This is very helpful in learning different ways to use my Xing Yi.

Also, in my style of xing yi (or any, that I know of) there is no bouncing in and out. You must strive to always advance on your opponent and only retreat to gain a better position. I know, easier said than done against a more advanced partner, but you should at least always try. After all, your "intent" is at least as important as your skill level, if not more so.

Stance traing should also help here as well. Pick a stance you feel comfortable with ( I use an eagle stance) and train that position and eventually your attacks will come from that stance. No bobbing up and down or weaving, just straight ahead and through the guy in front of you.