Linking/Connected Fist

OK so I've been in between schools for a couple months now, and the last thing I learned at my old school was Linking or Connected Fist. Of course there are lots of variations of the form, but one thing I found odd: the sequence of elements/fists. For example, the first couple movements are Pi followed by Beng, and later on Pao followed by Pi. Doesn't that result in disharmonious qi? I've tried to figure it out from a fighting aspect (i.e. fighting an imaginary opponent, which is of course what forms are for), but I can't find the logic for the sequence of fists which is obviously there but I'm just missing. Any thoughts?

Hi there!

You pose an interesting question indeed.....and one that I have posed to many Chinese Sifu's over the years. My learning experience in both Shan-Si Style Hsing-Yi Chuan and Classical Five Element Style Oriental Medicine presents the Five Elements in the normal Creative or Generative Cycle Sequence....namely Metal/Pi to Water/Tsuan to Wood/Peng to Fire/Pao to Earth/Heng and back to Metal/Pi to complete the cycle and/or repeat it again.

I never got a logical or believable answer from anyone as to why they switched the Water/Tsuan Element Fist and the Wood/Peng Element Fist Forms with one another.....or altered the Traditional Creative Cycle in some other way....whether practiced as individual lines or as linking sets.

The usual answer is "this is how my Sifu taught it...so this is how I practice it and teach it". OK! Whatever!

So.....I'm still waiting for a good answer to this question myself.

Light to All!

Sifu Stier

constructive / destructive theory doesnt hold up in the reality of combative encounters. this connecting / linking form is designed for combative purposes IMO.

for example If someone does a high Beng Chuan, or a jab style beng, how can Pi Chuan be used to counter it?? especially if your a shorter person etc.

The xing Yi adept needs to be able to flow between any element power with any other FREELY in combat. no restrictions by theory ... no restrictions at all. Just spontanious movement.

These theories are good for medical / health purposes. Doing a connected form performing the elements in sequence of the constructive cycle is good for health.

the linking form or connected form that i have been taught is mainly a combative development sequence, useing small loops of effective combative principles, connecting them into a form to teach you a complete combative system of Xing Yi.

a single step of the linking form has a huge amount of detail about how to move though effective transitions between elements. Making loops in joints and using the dan tiens rotation to drive power.

just my take on the Linking form.

Regards
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

Dear Mr. Davis:

As you stated....a Hsing-Yi Boxer certainly needs to be able to flow freely and without restriction among the various techniques in their fighting application. And indeed...the Form Set techniques must be programmed into the deeper, subconscious mind to do so as part of the adept's automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when fighting.

The purpose of the Five Element Fist lines and the Element Linking Sets...however...is to awaken and mobilize the chi...open the ching-luo lines and freely circulate the chi throughout the body...and to consolidate...compress...refine...and store the chi in the Tan Tien as preparation for 'issuing' and 'projecting' the chi when applying the techniques to actual self-defense and combat usage.

As such....from the standpoint of natural energy dynamics...the sequential arrangement of the postures is important in the mobilization and circulation of the instrinsic energy or chi as an integral part of proper internal energy development.

Additionally...in response to your application example...Metal/Pi Chuan or Splitting has many movement patterns including rising and laterally moving patterns of both the defensive and offensive hands...not just a downward moving pattern...which are quite effective in quickly neutralizing and countering a straight reverse punch like the Wood/Peng Chuan or Crushing Fist and lead hand jabs....thus employing the Control Cycle Theory of Metal conquers Wood!

I can assure you that...like all Shan-Si Style Hsing-Yi Chuan Masters...I am very capable of applying ALL Hsing-Yi Form Set techniques according to Traditional Theoretical Concepts with tremendous speed and power. Form and Function become ONE EXPRESSION...without any need to substantially alter or modify the movements in order to do so. And the theoretical 'guidelines' per se are not a restriction or impediment in any way....but rather an AID in achieving the desired results. This is just my humble...but correct opinion...stemming from the past 45 years of training! Here in my part of the world it is often said...."If it ain't broke...don't fix it".

Light to All!

Sifu Stier

Mr Stier,

An interesting post.

“	As you stated....a Hsing-Yi Boxer certainly needs to be able to flow freely and without restriction among the various techniques in their fighting application. And indeed...the Form Set techniques must be programmed into the deeper, subconscious mind to do so as part of the adept's automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when fighting.	”

I wouldn't agree with your premise that set techniques should be programmed into the adept at all.

The beauty of the Internal systems is their ability to be free from ANY set technique. The ability to programme power generation principles and movement dynamics brings about the spontaneous execution of limitless technique, the programming of techniques will give you that technique only. Maybe this is a difference in system or teaching method.

“	The purpose of the Five Element Fist lines and the Element Linking Sets...however...is to awaken and mobilize the chi...open the ching-luo lines and freely circulate the chi throughout the body...and to consolidate...compress...refine...and store the chi in the Tan Tien as preparation for 'issuing' and 'projecting' the chi when applying the techniques to actual self-defense and combat usage.	”

again ... I would tend to disagree with this .... are you saying that Chi isnt already all over our bodies? if this were the case ... how would we live?

The five element fists train the adept to express power from the seven stars in the 5 lines of force from dan tien for combat. And how to strengthen the organs. Lungs, Kidneys, Liver / spleen, Heart and stomach.

there is a definite process prior to energetics ... Li gong and tendonal training first and foremost. Without this 'body preparation' the expression of xing yi's force will destroy the exponents body, mainly damaging the joints that don’t have a clear line for the power to travel down.

Then when the body is prepared to express force, work on the dan tien and how its rotation relates to each of the five elements line of force can be focused on.

If our chi wasn’t 'mobilised' .... we would be dead! so preparing the 'xing yi body' is of primary importance in the early training.

then softening the training to allow the power to flow, and the organs to come into play can be focused on. this is the point where the linking form is then begun.

“	As such....from the standpoint of natural energy dynamics...the sequential arrangement of the postures is important in the mobilization and circulation of the instrinsic energy or chi as an integral part of proper internal energy development.	”

Agreed ... but this is not related to the linking form ... which is what we are discussing. This would relate to performing the 5 elements sequentially pi, tsuan, beng, pao and heng.

this is not in question. and as i stated in my post ... this relates to a 'HEALTH' practice and i belive the Linking form to be a 'COMBATIVE' practice.

“	Additionally...in response to your application example...Metal/Pi Chuan or Splitting has many movement patterns including rising and laterally moving patterns of both the defensive and offensive hands...not just a downward moving pattern...which are quite effective in quickly neutralizing and countering a straight reverse punch like the Wood/Peng Chuan or Crushing Fist and lead hand jabs....thus employing the Control Cycle Theory of Metal conquers Wood!	”

Agreed. Drill raise overturn fall are the constituent parts of Pi chuan. BUT ... the key idea of Pi chuan is the expression of power down with a forward aspect. The other power expressions are constituents to enable this expression ... without raising you cannot fall.

hence the appearance in the linking form of tsuan (down to up) immediately followed by pi(up to down).

so if using drilling in combat the power / elemental expression will be Tsuan chuan and not pi chuan. regardless of the drilling aspect of the pi chuan form movement.

“	I can assure you that...like all Shan-Si Style Hsing-Yi Chuan Masters...I am very capable of applying ALL Hsing-Yi Form Set techniques according to Traditional Theoretical Concepts with tremendous speed and power.	”

an interesting choice of frase there. surely as a Shanxi Hsing yi Chuan 'master' you should know the purpose of the linking form set?

traditional theoretical concepts?? where are these arising ... chinese medical theory or xing Yi Chuan? Maybe this is a good question to ponder.

Applying traditional Xing Yi to combat is not limited by the constructive / destructive cycle. The greatest masters of their age highlighted the flaws with over intellectualising the reality of the practice. With no mind and natural expression of power being the ultimate goal of the style ... free from thought or intellect.

over intellectualise or justify theory all you want ... it is an easy trap to fall into in any endeavour ... and at the end of the day .... theory is simply ... theory.

“	Form and Function become ONE EXPRESSION...without any need to substantially alter or modify the movements in order to do so.	”

At no point did i or have i said that there is any need to change or modify movement.

What i have said is that there is no need to hinder movement with thought.

“	And the theoretical 'guidelines' per se are not a restriction or impediment in any way....but rather an AID in achieving the desired results.	”

Agreed in SOME respects. but this discussion is related to the positioning of element movements in the linking forms and why they do not correspond to construction or destruction theory.

My reason for this is that the form free's you from the constraints of destructive theory ... which is infact a fairly modern conceptual addition to Xing Yi and is absent from the Dai family style and the earlier systems as far as i am aware.

The form highlights the tactical ability to link ANY element with ANY other without restriction by theoretical process instead relying on thenatural looping/spiraling motion of Leading force and dan tien.

In my opinion ... If not this why was the form created. I am interested in your views.

“	his is just my humble...but correct opinion...stemming from the past 45 years of training! Here in my part of the world it is often said...."If it ain't broke...don't fix it".	”

If it aunt broke dont fix it... quite right.

Maybe you misunderstood my post as trying to 'modify something' . I am not really sure where that came from.

My post was in response to the question on the linking form. As nobody else had an answer i gave my humble opinion.

happy training.

Regards
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

cd:

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion....whatever that may be...and it really doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not. However...I am entitled to my opinion as well...and if it differs from yours...it doesn't necessarily mean that I am wrong. You make alot of assumptions which you have no way of validating regarding my posts.

If Hsing-Yi Chuan is truly Boxing Formed by Intention and Shaped by Will....then by definition...logic would suggest that it must begin at some point...somewhere...with a consciously willed mental intention.

I was taught that the consciously intended programming of the Five Element Fists and the 12 Animal Styles...along with the Foundation Principles of Softness, Rootedness, Circularity and Rhythm...into the deeper mind does not in any way limit or restrict the automatic defensive reactions and spontaneous combative responses to rigidly defined parameters of manifestation. In fact...these 'forms' often express themselves in ways which the practitioner may never have been taught or ever seen demonstrated or applied previously. This makes sense psychologically since such free flowing manifestation of techniques comes from the sub-conscious mind....which has no ability to exercise value judgements or personal discriminations regarding their usage. The deeper mind of the Internal Arts is unlimited in its capacity to express Form and Function in whatever way is most needed and most effective for the situation at hand....without intellectual strategy or conscious decisions being brought to bear at all.

Of course...all living creatures already have intrinsic energy within their bodies....but not necessarily optimal circulation of the energy or totally unobstructed lines of energy transport. Hence...the importance of moving the body within the framework of the Form Set 'suggestions' in a manner which also exercises the movement of the chi in harmony with its known essential nature and tendency to express itself. This insures that the centrifugal movement of the chi upward and outward from the Tan-Tien to the hands in application is completely free and unimpeded.

In the end....all of these factors are expressed simultaneously...spontaneously...and automatically...totally unhindered by conscious thought. I never said otherwise...nor would I as real fighting happens faster than one can think in any event!

“	You are certainly entitled to your own opinion....whatever that may be...and it really doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not. However...I am entitled to my opinion as well...and if it differs from yours...it doesn't necessarily mean that I am wrong. You make alot of assumptions which you have no way of validating regarding my posts.	”

I didnt see any assumptions? i was just offering my opinions ... just as you were. Right or wrong wont be proven on a discussion forum.

“	If Hsing-Yi Chuan is truly Boxing Formed by Intention and Shaped by Will....then by definition...logic would suggest that it must begin at some point...somewhere...with a consciously willed mental intention.	”

Agreed. but would you class 'mind' and 'intellect ' as the same. This is the distinction i was making.

“	I was taught that the consciously intended programming of the Five Element Fists and the 12 Animal Styles...along with the Foundation Principles of Softness, Rootedness, Circularity and Rhythm...into the deeper mind does not in any way limit or restrict the automatic defensive reactions and spontaneous combative responses to rigidly defined parameters of manifestation. In fact...these 'forms' often express themselves in ways which the practitioner may never have been taught or ever seen demonstrated or applied previously. This makes sense psychologically since such free flowing manifestation of techniques comes from the sub-conscious mind....which has no ability to exercise value judgements or personal discriminations regarding their usage.	”

nicely put.

you seem to think i am somehow commenting that the 5 elemements or twelve animals some how need to be changed ... It is strange where you are getting this from .... i cannot see comment or hint towards this in any of my posts.

“	The deeper mind of the Internal Arts is unlimited in its capacity to express Form and Function in whatever way is most needed and most effective for the situation at hand....without intellectual strategy or conscious decisions being brought to bear at all.	”

Again ... is this not exactley what i was saying to you? but with a slightly more 'intellectual' bend to it?

“	Of course...all living creatures already have intrinsic energy within their bodies....but not necessarily optimal circulation of the energy or totally unobstructed lines of energy transport. Hence...the importance of moving the body within the framework of the Form Set 'suggestions' in a manner which also exercises the movement of the chi in harmony with its known essential nature and tendency to express itself. This insures that the centrifugal movement of the chi upward and outward from the Tan-Tien to the hands in application is completely free and unimpeded.	”

Indeed ... as i have stated this is the purpose for the cycle of pi, tsuan, beng, pao and heng purformed in succession.

As i have also stated this is not in question.

“	In the end....all of these factors are expressed simultaneously...spontaneously...and automatically...totally unhindered by conscious thought. I never said otherwise...nor would I as real fighting happens faster than one can think in any event!	”

Agreed.

we agree on the majority of your post .... pretty much.

But have deviated completely from the the thread topic into a ... 'i know more about Xing Yi' battle.

My posts are geared towards answering the question at hand taking into account that no-one else, yourself included, came up with a reasonable responce to said question.

IMO ... the destructive cycle is not present in the linking form due to its 'practical combative focus' and its tuition on linking all elements in any order, which will be a pre-requisite for real fighting.

maybe we could get back to the topic at hand??

Regards
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

First of all....I never intended to answer the original question regarding the order of performance in the Linking Sets. Mostly because the Shan-Si Set which I practice and teach links the Elements in the Creative Cycle Sequence.
You gave your opinion as to why this needs to be different and had to be changed...based upon your personal perspective of their application dynamics. Whatever....that's fine.

Secondly.....you're so busy in all of your posts trying to intellectually respond to every paragraph...that you often misunderstand or misinterpret what is being said to you. Lose all the quotes! I don't need to re-read my entire post again in your post in order to remember what I said. If you do....take notes or scroll down to re-read it! It comes across to me as arrogant condescension....as if you think that you are the sole authority on this subject who must approve or disapprove of every comment and opinion posted by others. Besides....it would be easier to follow YOUR thoughts if they weren't constantly separated with quotes from someone else's post.

Kinda funny, eh? We're talking about Linking Elements....but it would seem that linking minds and thoughts is more of a problem than the physical exercises are! What a hoot! Just let it go...and let it flow! It's all good!

Light to All!

Sifu Stier

ha ha ha.

Ok ... On this forum it is generally easier to quote and respond directley to a quote so that you know what i am responding too. Just a generall thing that most people do.

But no worries ... dont let it upset ya!

I didnt give an opinion on why the Shanxi linking form needed to be changed at all, I gave my experience based on the linking form i know from the Hebei style.

“	It comes across to me as arrogant condescension	”

(couldnt resist)

Funny ... thats exactley how your posts appear also ... no biggy. Just a misinterpretation of Intent.

I was mierly expressing my views. Not trying to be anything. I am not anything. Just a simple Xing Yi Guy.

Take it easy. Happy training.

chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

Mr. Davis:

No problem, man! My apologies if I came across that way, too. I accept each person's right to their own personal opinion about things...and that is as it should be. I don't like having people tell me what I should or should not think or do...and so I assume that others probably feel the same! Even my own Master never 'talks down' to me. He addresses me as a peer and an equal....even though I'm not even close to his level of skill and understanding.

I never thought for an instant that you were expressing an opinion on the Shansi Linking Set. I always understood that you were speaking in reference to your own practice of a different style.

It takes alot more than the divergent opinion of a stranger at an online forum to really upset me. However...I have been a Certified Master Instructor for over 30 years now...and have thus grown accustomed to giving more info than I receive about these subjects...and accustomed to receiving courtesy and respect in my physical presence which is often absent from my contacts with people in venues like this. But not to worry...this is one of the reasons I do this.

Good luck to you in your training as well!

Light to All!

Sifu Stier

Thankyou Mr Stier,

No worries. We are all still learning. Places like this help us grow.

Interestingly my teacher would probably laugh for hours if i called him 'master' ... even though he is very skilled. I call him Alex ... he calls me Chris. I am the same with my students.

Pedistals are not something i tend to put people on. Maybe this is why you thought i was being offensive or condesending and for that i appologise.

welcome to to the boards, I look forward to more discussions.

Cheers
Chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

“	Originally Posted By: Sifu Stier I have been a Certified Master Instructor for over 30 years now...and have thus grown accustomed to giving more info than I receive about these subjects...and accustomed to receiving courtesy and respect in my physical presence which is often absent from my contacts with people in venues like this. But not to worry...this is one of the reasons I do this. Good luck to you in your training as well! Light to All! Sifu Stier	”

ha! Welcome to the Internet - the great leveller - here all opinions tend to get equal weight, unlike real life.

Certified by who, if I may ask? Ahhh.. found you on the Net:

"
Dr Gary Stier began training in the Chinese martial arts in January 1961, initially studying Tang Shou Tao (Tong Sau Do) and Southern Shao-lin Styles (Nam Kune Siu Lum), notably Southern White Crane Styles (Fujian Bok Hok Pai). He than began training in the Shen Men Tao System (San Mun Do) in 1965. Dr. Stier is an Initiate Disciple of Shen Men Tao Grand Master Li Rong Hua (Lei Wing Wah) and the first non-Chinese practitioner of this System to be certified as a Master of Five Excelences in 1975 (Art, Music, Poetry, Healing Arts, and Martial Arts). The Shen Men Tao System includes Yang Tai-Chi Chuan, Sun Pa Kua Chang, Shan Si Hsing I Chuan, and Wu Tang Shan Chi Kung Forms. Sifu Stier was promoted to Grand Master in Spring 2002 following the promotion of his first student to become Master Instructor, Sifu Jordan P Whitfield.

Sifu Stier practices and teaches Sun Lu-Tang Style Pa Kua Chang, specializing in 8 Animal Palms, Earlier Heaven 8 Trigram Palms, Later Heaven 8 Trigram Palms, 64 Hexagram Palms, and Pa Kua weaponry, with all Forms practiced exclusively with both forward and backward Circle Walking at either Slow Speed for Moving Chi Kung, or at Fast Speed for Martial application. Inquiries and questions are welcome!"

Sounds good. Do you just teach forms or do you and your students spar as well?

quanping:

We are soft/internal style boxers....not new age dancers!

Light to All!

Sifu Stier

Chris, dont bother comparing knowledge, your not match for 45 years of experience.

On a more serious note, a couple of questions for Dr. steir, if i may?

A little info on Li Rong Hua, i searched on the net and found nothing. Who tought him?

When you say Shanxi, what type of shanxi xingyi do you refer? Che, Song, etc?

When you say Grandmaster, you mean rank or that a student of yours began to have students himself? If its rank, who proceded to promote you?


Innocent questions, im a beginner myself and want this oportunity to exchange info with someone that has been around for so much time.

__________________
...someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out.....fight is over....

Jeez, I might actually listen more to Stier if he didnt poke fun every other paragraph.

At the end of the day, chi no chi, jing no jing, whether you believe in it all or not, it all works.

Thus, like i've said before, i'll say again - stop *****ing and start training!

And just coz everyone else has added a quote, heres mine "If you dont like it, quit"

__________________
heroes.legend@googlemail.com
www.heroeslegend.com
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