Your Favourite Xing Yi Fist?

This is not a pole, this is an opinion'd answer-forum.
What is your favourite fist? Clearly there is not a 'better' fist, because they must all work in combination and harmony, but does anyone have any favourites?

Pi Quan "Splitting Fist" - METAL!
Zuan Quan "Drilling Fist" - WATER!
Beng Quan "Crushing Fist" - WOOD!
Pao Quan "Pounding Fist" - FIRE!
Heng Quan "Crossing Fist" - EARTH!
- HART! (Wuji...sorry, I was thinking of the "Captain Planet" theme song. Does anyone remember that?)

So yes - what is your favourite Xing Yi fist?

~Monkey Lifting Water

All 5,I can't really say I like one more than another.Although I do have a fist or two that still needs work and I am not 100% confident with.The 5 together make a mini-complete stand up game.As I do see the value in the animals,you could defend yourself just fine if you had the the 5 fists down pretty well.

“	Originally Posted By: Franksv All 5,I can't really say I like one more than another. Although I do have a fist or two that still needs work and I am not 100% confident with. The 5 together make a mini-complete stand up game. As I do see the value in the animals, you could defend yourself just fine if you had the 5 fists down pretty well.	”

Funny you should say that.

There are many schools of thought on the relationship between the 5 fists and the 12 animals in Xing yi. Many believe the five fists are part of the Yi quan training of Xing Yi, and the 12 animals are part of the Xing quan.
However most Xingyiquan scholars believe that the 5 animal fist precedes the 12 animals - that 5 animals is all there was. The fellow "Superspear" who is usually accredited as inventing the art, denied that claim, saying he inherited the 5 fists from a secret scoll given to him by a strange hermit in the mountains, and he claims the scroll was authored by a great Chinese hero from 400 years earlier.

Then, Superspear invented the 12 animals, beginning with the Bear and Eagle, after having seen a bear and eagle fighting together. The 12 animals are considered simply extensions of the 5 fists - mixing and matching of the different concepts of drilling, pounding, etc, and that all you really need in Xing Yi is the 5 fists, because the 12 animals are more or less an 'example' of mixing the 5 concepts.

However, most people say Superspear was a great big liar and much too modest and he actually invented the whole thing.

I however concede to the idea that the 5 fists must somehow predate the 12 animals, because when you analyse the 12 animals they truly are a mixing of the 5 concepts, and if you know the 5 fists inside and out - the 12 animals, and more, come naturally as an extension of concept. Therefore I believe the 12 animals must be a later invention, and not wholly necessary to Xing Yi.

But look at it this way - its a pretty small system as it is - it can't get any smaller.

~Monkey Lifting Water

__________________
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"Black Tiger Steals Heart"

Talking about the 5 fists,one thing that has struck me is how I have met many guys that focus on another style,but have learned the basic hsing-I package(santi,5-fists,footwork,linking forms).Its pretty amazing how this material can blend with many other styles.Just to name a few I have met tai chi,bagua,liu ho pa fa and lama players that also train basic hsing-I.Come to think of it,I don't know any pure hsing-I guys with the animals.But,this is just my exp.Given the chance,I would pick up the animals myself.

You only have to use your mental faculties and look at the history to realise that the animals came first.

The older styles of XinYi (the forebearer of XingYi) don't have the 5 elements, but do have the animals, ergo the animals came first.

I am not sure the Xinyi Liuhe was earlier than Xingyi Quan, even if people often state that. There are also people who believes that the three Dai fists should be the first Xingyi style. Maybe more research will give more clear evidence of what was first. But then, what difference should that make?

Anyway - to answer the original question: - I am a Beng guy.

Unlike Taiji Quan and Bagua the lineage of XingYi is surprisingly well documented. All the way back to Ji Long Feng, the first person documented as practicing the art. If you want to ignore that and make your own mind up, well, that's up to you.

quanping:

What I have understood there is no documented lineage until the 17th century. But if I am wrong, I would be happy to see what youve got.

Are you saying that Ji Longfeng should be the founder? If that is what you mean, is he documented as the founder? Not to my knowledge. If that was not what you meant, then only the lineage from him, and not the development of the art, is well documented.

“	Originally Posted By: quanping Unlike Taiji Quan and Bagua the lineage of XingYi is surprisingly well documented. All the way back to Ji Long Feng, the first person documented as practicing the art. If you want to ignore that and make your own mind up, well, that's up to you.	”

Ummm...yes, well documented after Ji Long Feng, who himself insisted that he found the Xing Yi fists in a cave that was written by an old famous chinese general who's name eludes me now. I'm not ignoring anything - its not my controversy - Ji Long Feng said this, scholars disgaree and name him as the founder of the art anyway. That's just the way conflicts in historical perspective go.

~Monkey Lifting Water

__________________
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./`|
"Black Tiger Steals Heart"

Ji Long Feng made no claims on having found the 'XingYi fists' (by which I assume you mean the 5 Element fists) in a cave - he claimed to have rediscovered Yu Fei's art from an old manuscript belonging to Yu Fei (as the legend goes). He makes no mention of 'XingYi fists' and nobody thinks he practiced the 5 Element fists, as they are known today.

"After Yue Fei's death, the art was lost for half a millennium. Then, during the cusp of the Ming and Qing Dynasties in Shaanxi Province's Zhongnan Mountains, Yue Fei's boxing manual was discovered by Ji Longfeng (also known as Ji Jike) of neighbouring Shanxi Province.

Like the Preface, the Ji Clan Chronicles (pinyin: Ji Shi Jiapu) describes Xingyiquan as a martial art based on the combat principles of the spear. The Chronicles, however, attributes this stylistic influence to Ji himself, who was known as the "Divine Spear" (??; pinyin: Shén Qi?ng) for his extraordinary skill with the weapon.

The master who taught Xingyiquan to Ma Xue Li is conventionally identified as Ji Longfeng himself. However, the traditions of the Ma family itself say only that Xueli learned from a wandering master whose name is unknown.
Ji Longfeng referred to his art as Liu He, The Six Harmonies.

The Preface identifies Cao Ji Wu as a student of Ji Longfeng and the master who taught Xingyiquan to Dai Longbang. However, other sources identify Dai's teacher variously as Li Zheng or Niu Xixian.
Xingyiquan remained fairly obscure until Li Luoneng (also known as Li Nengran) learned the art from the Dai family in the 19th century. It was Li Luoneng and his successors—which include Guo Yunshen, Li Cunyi, Zhang Zhaodong, Sun Lutang, and Shang Yunxiang—who would popularise Xingyiquan across Northern China."

The most likely source of the 5 fists is the Dai family for the simple reason Lines coming from Ji Long Feng that bypass the Dai family don't have them - they only have the animals. The Dai family were ancestors (through Li Nengran) of the 'modern' Shanxi and Hebei styles of XingYi.

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyi

Note:

"A reliable genealogy of Xingyiquan can be traced to the 18th century to Ma Xueli of Henan Province and Dai Longbang of Shanxi Province."

The Henan styles descended from Ma Xueli have no 5 Element fists, but lots of animals, ergo animals came first.

“	Originally Posted By: quanping Ji Long Feng made no claims on having found the 'XingYi fists' (by which I assume you mean the 5 Element fists) in a cave - he claimed to have rediscovered Yu Fei's art from an old manuscript belonging to Yu Fei (as the legend goes).	”

My sources say he found this manuscript in a mountain cave.

“	Originally Posted By: quanping "After Yue Fei's death, the art was lost for half a millennium. Then, during the cusp of the Ming and Qing Dynasties in Shaanxi Province's Zhongnan Mountains, Yue Fei's boxing manual was discovered by Ji Longfeng (also known as Ji Jike) of neighbouring Shanxi Province. Like the Preface, the Ji Clan Chronicles (pinyin: Ji Shi Jiapu) describes Xingyiquan as a martial art based on the combat principles of the spear. The Chronicles, however, attributes this stylistic influence to Ji himself, who was known as the "Divine Spear" (??; pinyin: Shén Qi?ng) for his extraordinary skill with the weapon. The master who taught Xingyiquan to Ma Xue Li is conventionally identified as Ji Longfeng himself. However, the traditions of the Ma family itself say only that Xueli learned from a wandering master whose name is unknown. Ji Longfeng referred to his art as Liu He, The Six Harmonies. The Preface identifies Cao Ji Wu as a student of Ji Longfeng and the master who taught Xingyiquan to Dai Longbang. However, other sources identify Dai's teacher variously as Li Zheng or Niu Xixian. Xingyiquan remained fairly obscure until Li Luoneng (also known as Li Nengran) learned the art from the Dai family in the 19th century. It was Li Luoneng and his successors—which include Guo Yunshen, Li Cunyi, Zhang Zhaodong, Sun Lutang, and Shang Yunxiang—who would popularise Xingyiquan across Northern China." The most likely source of the 5 fists is the Dai family for the simple reason Lines coming from Ji Long Feng that bypass the Dai family don't have them - they only have the animals. The Dai family were ancestors (through Li Nengran) of the 'modern' Shanxi and Hebei styles of XingYi.	”

Yes, thank you for making a nice little write up based on one source, but even in your story there is conflict. Hence - the development of Xing Yi is a very well documented *controversy*.

~MLW

__________________
...O
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"Black Tiger Steals Heart"

I feel like you are ignoring the issue and trying to sidetrack me.

For clarity you said: "Therefore I believe the 12 animals must be a later invention, and not wholly necessary to Xing Yi."

However, the fact is that animals came before 5 fists - simple.

“	Originally Posted By: quanping I feel like you are ignoring the issue and trying to sidetrack me. For clarity you said: "Therefore I believe the 12 animals must be a later invention, and not wholly necessary to Xing Yi." However, the fact is that animals came before 5 fists - simple.	”

If its that easy to side-track you I'm glad we're talking about something straight-forward moving like Xing-Yi and not bagua.

Now, I'll ask this question: Have you ever studdied Xing Yi?

~MLW

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"Black Tiger Steals Heart"

Heh.

Ironically you fail to notice that I didn't get sidetracked!

I see you're trying again. The answer is ye, but that has got nothing to do with this thread. If you want to engage in some personal chitterchatter with me then that's what private messages are for. I'm not particularly interested if you practice XingYi or not.

Stay on topic and contribute something relevant or find another thread.

I'm not sidetracking you; the question is pertinant because you don't sound like you know what you're talking about. You have either never lifted a Xing Yi fist, or you've not read anythign outside an online anyone-can-change-me website.

Firstly, history. Ji Longfeng is credited with inventing the bear and eagle styles after witnessing a fight between said parties. He already knew Xing Yi before this. It is well recognised that the bear eagle styles were the first of the animal styles. Ji Longfeng claims he did not make up the foundation movements, he only helped the system grow.

More importantly: If you've ever studdied Xing Yi, you know that the concepts of drilling, pounding, crossing - the base elements are at work in the animal systems in different combinations. Even if you have a system of Xing Yi that only contains animals - you still have the 5 basic fists, because there are inherent in everything else in the system. The dragon still drills, the rooster still smashes, et cetera. These concepts do not go away.

Ta-da

~Monkey Lifting Water

__________________
...O
.<|--*
./`|
"Black Tiger Steals Heart"