Cannon Fist; the "other" hand?

As you folks maybe well aware xingyi in one of its 5 Element forms does a move called Cannon or sometimes translated as Pounding fist (in Chinese 炮拳). And this form crops up in other xingyi training routines including the Sparrow Hawk (or Falcon, whichever english name you want for it).

What it amounts to is one hand strikes and one hand is held up near the head. To kind of show what I am talking about let me use a page from my own training manual (yes, I drew the pictures. Don’t laugh, art was not my major in school) And the line at the bottom which is partially obscured is simply me reminding myself to be aware of forming bad habits from forms training. What I am scolding myself about is that I am often quite sloppy (to steal a line from Jim Kelly in Enter the Dragon), in how I work the upraised hand—a lot of time I end up flaring it out away from my torso or do not end up really protecting my head much with it. Which brings me to my queston:

How/where do you folks hold your hand/arm when doing this move?




take care,
Brian

Is this different than the cannon fist in chen taiji?

__________________

yeah Paoquan is a technique/energy in xingyi.
When I do Pao my rear hand is very much like the pictures you have drawn as well, back protecting the head or conversely pulling the opponent into the pounding fist. My face looks the same as your pics too! Seriously thanks a lot for scanning in your training notes, most serious martial artists keep a journal (a secret manual some might say) and it is a very private thing... maybe we should start a thread of scanned images from people manuals they write???

__________________
"If you meet Buddha on the road, Kill him."

I try to use the high arm to enter into the attacking arms structure this has the effect of raising body's center when you make contact with the fist.

I therfore move the high arm forward with my center and attacking arm. Not just rotating.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

Glad the illustrations were helpful. One of my friends here in Taiwan really puts a focus on what might be called the "offensive" use of the upper blocking arm. What I gotta do is really pay more attention to making sure it does not simply "come along for the ride" so to speak. And by that I mean decide what I am going to do with it and do it. After all xingyi is Mind-Intent Boxing so I ought to "intend" something with that arm.

take care,
Brian

I flare it out a bit so that it is somewhat diagonal.

Ed

I think all the applications are correct given your intent. Also provided the energy and structure of the movement is still there. It is after all a hsing Yi skill.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

When I was shown the technique, I was told to keep my fist up in front of my upper dantien/third eye. I was told that some people use it as a guard or block. I feel that keeping my intent on the explosion forward with the strike, with sort of a secondary intent on my back hand/upper dantien connection really helps with the overall feel for me. The back hand/dantien connection gives a feel of a circle/ball, that could be used for blocking/guarding I suppose, but if not seems to help circle the energy around and out the strike.

Sort of like O--> rather than a ^--> The second example, with a sharp upward blocking intent, seems to split the energy and takes away from the strike. At least, for me it does. But heck, I'm not very good at Xing Yi.

__________________
You must learn to balance a tack hammer on your head, so you can head off your foes with a balanced attack!

I never really thought of the non-punching hand as a block seeing as how far out and rounded it is, which is good for flow of Qi but in my book not effective blocking. I was also taught that the hand should be in pointed towards the center of the forehead with the wrist slightly pulled back to align the arm bones. However I was also told that your intent should be on your elbows strength being pulled down.

I personally tend to think of the element of fire itself...Burning, explosive, passionate, powerful. So when I do Pao Quan I tend to throw my whole being forward, focusing my power into a explosion out the front fist, no hesitation.

But then again this is my interpretation. And I never gave to much attention to that secondary hand...that is until now ....so I really find this interesting, hearing other peoples ideas, it's really causeing me to examine my practice much more closely.

Semper Fi

I was taught that the power should be equal in both arms. Either arm could be hitting or blocking depending on the situation. The point is that the structure is there and that the energy is expressed outwardly. In application the upperhand can block at different angles, but keeps the same structure and jing. I personally like to hit with the hand one of you referred to as the "non-punching" hand more often FWIW. The five elements are really not as simpla as people make them out to be. There are infintesimal ways to apply them in combat.
J

One of the reasons I really have shifted my focus on keeping the other hand up near the head to protect it is the fact that Cannon Fist is the only one of the 5 Fists that really seems to have anything resembling keeping your hands up to protect your head. (having said that I am well aware of the fact that you could tweak the opening move, i.e. the one where you drill both hands up the centerline of your chest and then out into Splitting Fist as a head guard).

One of the most glaring failures of traditional Chinese martial arts (and you see this at every San Da tournament here in Taiwan where some dude is trying to "fight traditional style") is guys waving their hands around like Bruce Lee in a movie or doing some weird low/extended guard deal (like xingyi Splitting Fist or bagua Single Palm position) and then-----getting their lights knocked out by someone who realizes the importance of hands up, chin down.


A friend of mine named Scott Sommers was fighting in a MMA tourney here in Taipei and I was sitting as one of the judges (yeah, I know, a little "conflict of interest"...but this is Taiwan) and Scott just "clocked" the other guy who was a local Taiwanese trying to fight "traditional style". The dude was keeping his hands down and extended, just like Pi Quan---and Scott caught him. (I realize too, one should not draw conclusions from a single event, but I have seen the same thing happen over and over here.)


So it is something that traditional Chinese martial artists (like myself) need to fix.

We got a lot of good ideas going through this thread. And that is super.

Take care,
Brian

Hi Brian, hope you are well.

FWIW we often really stress the rear hand - both in terms of defence (e.g. not only protect the head, but elbow protects the ribs from roundhouse kick...) but also a secondary/ sneak attack, and how it gets up there (involves opening the back in the right way and is an important part of the power generation).

Our elbow will usually be dropped/ sunk with the hand by the temple (ish). However, a rising strike with the base of the fist, a sneaky hook on the downward preparation, and plenty use of the elbow will all feature depending on Marnix' mood as he teaches. The pull down bit can also be turned into an entry-clinch-knee for the muay thai inclined.

__________________
"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Hi Rob
That is an interesting approach too. I am talking about where you say:

"...However, a rising strike with the base of the fist, a sneaky hook on the downward preparation, and plenty use of the elbow will all feature depending on Marnix' mood as he teaches. The pull down bit can also be turned into an entry-clinch-knee for the muay thai inclined."

In fact I will give some of that a try this evening. Thanks much. (on a side note Rob, have we met elsewhere in cyberspace? One of the other forums?, I am getting old and sometimes can not place where I met someone!)

take care,
Brian

Brian,

I sometimes post also over at Emptyflower

__________________
"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Rob: I like the way you WSJ guys do the five elements. I visited with James Lee who is a longtime student of Eric Hung teaching in northern VA. He showed me you guys five elements forms. It's cool how the twisting is done to develope the back and shoulders. Good stuff.
J