Jap swords in Hsing i

Hi ppl,

Someone has posted on another forum saying that Hsing I has forms that use Japanese Swords, see below.

“	However, my Hsing-I instr has us use a bokken for sword practice. I asked him about the use of a bokken, and the curvature, as I'm more used to seeing the straight double edged Chinese sword or Sabre in Chinese arts. His comment was that there was a shipwreck on the Chinese coast, hundreds of years ago, where swords and technical manuals were recovered from the shipwreck. Also, trade between Japan and China included swords as well. Anyway, these may have served as the impetus for the use of the Japanese styled sword.	”

and ...

“	There are several prominent Hsing-I instructors in my area, from different lineages. They all seem to do their Hsing I sword in a similar fashion.	”

Is this story correct and is the Japanese Sword part of the system.

Seems New to me.

Your comments or thoughts

cheers
chris

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Never heard of it.

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Aja

There are many sorts of dao/ sabre - not just the thing we are all used to seeing as such.

Suggest a brief excursion to swordforum and looking at the Chinese forum there. Pics of various swords, plus discussion on General Qi Jiguang (Sp) and the sword techniques in his manual.

[edit - link]
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdi...ps=&forumid=17
[/edit]

[edit - found one!]

[/edit]

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So is the above sword a chinese sabre it looks very similar to a Japanese katana

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When all are one and one is all
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What about this this looks to be a japanese sword

Interesting topic

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I've known of double handed swords in Taiji and some other styles.

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Aja

I think I know this guy, since memory serves a hazy historical fact on the work i've been doing.

Essentially the forms in xy are no different for the fact of using the katana-esque sword than a jian or dao.

The story that has been related too at the start of the thread was related to the kaidomawaryu kenpo practitioners who at the time had been employed to try and combat the high levels of piracy that was going on between china and japan - in an attempt at easing relations between the two countries.

The pirates, quick to react to the fact that they're about to get a dose of whoopass changed their fighting styles (and i believe were also using xing yi), and in the heat of battles used the swords to fight with, along with their own weapons - in the true spirit of piracy...

Anyhows, its something like that - i've got routines where I can use katana, bokken, dao or jian and swop and change without any change in the routine itself.

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The swords in the pictures all look very Japanese. Although you can never be certain - the use of a Japanese sword might be because it was easier to come by at some period of time for a particular form or the instructor liked it. I can't say its a Hsing-I weapon though.

There are several weapons that are similar to the Japanese Katana such as the saber used in Taiji - such similitaries might make the interchange for training purposes and availability viable.

Saying that, the grip employed in the picture is something similiar to modern Iaido versus a proper Kenjutsu grip.

Maybe somebody will find this interesting

Although there is recorded documentation of two-handed Dao (see the URL's listed below) these were not common. Both a straight and curved did exist.


They where used as far as I can tell, in a similar fashion akin to a western two-handed sword. Solders in a formation armed with these would attack spearmen massed together. I don't know if they were used as a one on one weapon. I imagine they could have been used that way. European two-handed swords were. From the prints they look far heavier that a standard katana. They look heavy enough to hack thru spear shafts. A standard katana, although being a fine blade, isn't designed for such a task.

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/qin.html
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/art...hand/ming.html
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/art...and/ming3.html


More common were this classification of swords

See this URL

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/08art03.html

The Chinese fought in close formations with sword and shield (as well as other weapons too) their approach was akin to western sword practices. The design of these blades says as much. I.e. often one handed and possessing two edges etc…

Some styles of Xingyiquan that I know of, have a two-handed sword form. It's of the heavy type mentioned and can be curved or straight.

Some Chinese xingyi literature state the sword is the precursor to the Katana, saying Chinese technology influenced Japan. This could be, the knights of the Crusades were seriously influenced by Middle Eastern technology.

China's culture was highly influential to feudal Japan (especially the early feudal period, not so much later.....) . I certainly have not seen enough documentation yet…..but it's a good hypothesis for sure.

The sword I posted is Chinese. The links posted by Paul are owned by the moderator of the Chinese forum on swordforum (Scott Rodell).

To say he knows his stuff is a total underestimation.

Li ... what you refer to is this debate about General Qi.

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Well one problem is that if you actually look at older authentic Chinese Sabers, they look more "katanaesque" and they don't have the bulge that many of the mass produced "ox tail" practice sabers have. But the fact remains that Chinese sabers are VERY unstandaradized and come in many, many variations, I dare say, many more variations than the Katana. For example the Miao (sp) sub group use a large two handed saber that is very similar looking to the katana, and as well the "Tai Chi" style saber is also more katana-like.

It would be nice to see more of the lower quality practice sabers reflect a little more the true variety of historical saber styles.

http://www.wle.com//products/W313.html similar to the katana

“	Originally posted by SliqueRICK http://www.wle.com//products/W313.html similar to the katana	”

I think have also seen thaT sword referred to as "Dragon Fast Sword"

I like it.

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Well one problem is that if you actually look at older authentic Chinese Sabers, they look more "katanaesque" and they don't have the bulge that many of the mass-produced "ox tail" practice sabers have. But the fact remains that Chinese sabers are VERY un-standardized and come in many, many variations,

StormMountain

End)

Not to high-jack anyone's thread, but since we are on swords…..

I've been wondering about the Ox-tail versions for a while. Was the additional steel at the end created for heft and slicing power Most would probably say yes. Was it an improvement over older designs or just a different version

Most Dao sword forms apply the free hand near the ox-tail to support the back of the sword in close encounters. These techniques have a conscription feel to them. (IMO)

I can't help to compare it to the western falchion.

The western falchion had a designed similar to the Dao. Historian has reported that the sword is one of the main reasons that plate mail came into existence. It cleaved through chain mail quite easily. Seems the ox-tail Dao also has this same attributes because of its design. I've read that one of the main reasons there are few falchions still in existence, is because they used and abused them to death, few were kept as air looms. Both foot soilders and nobles used it.

So I've been wondering was the falchion used the same way as we see the Dao used

Was the ox-tail dao created to hack through chain mail like a falchion

Is the ox-tail design that old to merit the above hypothesis

Anyone

http://store.museumreplicas.com/isro...es/mrl1461.JPG

Here is a pic of a saber that is based on an actual historical saber, and I must say, for the quality, this is an excellent price.

Paul, I think many other medieval swords were just as capable of shearing mail, although of course each sword design has its own specialty and the falchion and oxtail's is the choping/cleaving and shearing attack.
Which of course, it is worthy of note is not the way a Katana is meant to be used at all! (Think about the difference between slicing flesh and chopping through bone, that's movie watchers of the Samurai Sword, it really wasn't made for hacking of limbs!)

Although many probably did prefer the Falchion, the lack of surviving examples tends to suggest rarity AND the rugged use, as you said, but that suggests that it was mostly the weapon of the poor man who was basically just using his machete or weed whacker for other purposes, no different than he would use his ax for fighting as well as chopping wood. Actually, the Da Dao, the southern type of broadsword used in by many of the boxer rebellion rank and file and also know as a "beheading" sword is more in line with the way a Falchion would be used.


My point though, is that there are a fair amount of antique Chinese sabers floating around the vast majority I have seen look a lot more like the picture in the link I posted than any saber I have seen in a kung fu movie or kung fu weapons catalog! I think the Oxtail is simply more distinctive than the other saber types and in the world of movies and martial demonstrations that is what has become the norm, even if it weren't so in the old history of things.