Underlying principles versus physical technique

I was wondering how many people are taught in their classes (or as teachers instruct students), the underlying principles behind the individual forms and explore them through self-defense applications.

For example, given Jing Quan (Metal Form), Pi Quan is the model for the principles for the form. The form itself explores Pi Jin (splitting energy), Bo Jin (Deflecting energy), and Peng Jin (war-off/evaluation energy). [I use these terms just for standardization]. Each of these has underlying concepts behind them that explain the basic nature. For example, deflecting energy can be described as motion that redirects the energy of an opponent's strike "behind" you without stopping the flow.

In approach you can apply drilling energy with deflecting energy or splitting energy with deflecting energy, etc.

So, how many people learn or instruct on these principles and their applications during classes. It does not have to be the exact ones I've described btw. Furthermore, how many are instructed in a manner that is not meta-physical in nature

Cheers,
Bryan

I learned that way, and I learned without metajumbomumbo

Um, this is the same thing (to me at least) as asking whether you are taught the art indepth and martially, or just the outer forms.

Even those teachers who would prefer you to practice it and work it out for yourself than talk about it ... fall into the first category. As they assume you will try to find the principles in the technique/ go beyond the outer form that you have been shown.

Only those (and they are majority) that teach nothing but the outer shell are in the second category.

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

“	Um, this is the same thing (to me at least) as asking whether you are taught the art indepth and martially, or just the outer forms.	”

Yes and No. More on the yes side I guess.

The intention of the message was not to pick on an individual or a teacher but to discover how people are being taught this nice art. Some instructors make a presumption that the students will pick up all the principles through observation, while others openly discuss the principles in an easy to understand format. Other individuals make the phrasing all complicated and flowery, while some just don't do it at all.

From other readings, it seems many people isolate the individual fists as the governing principles versus being models for the principles.

When someone asks a question on the power of the Splitting Palm we often give phrases such as "Cutting like an axe" which is from a song associated to a specific teacher, or "dantien rotation" - it sounds sorta cool and all but its not very helpful.

I want to know more about how people teach or are taught. If a teacher says "dantien rotation" does not explain what that means or does he use flowery pose from a century ago.

There have been over the last year a few articles in various magazines on Xing Yi attempting to describe the basic forms of energy of the system but the articles themselves don't explain anything about the forms, principles, and energies.

If people still teach in flowery-form only; does this help and is their a need. Is this due to poor information of the art, a difficulty in explaining the principles; or a miscommunication based on one or two instructors published songs

Cheers,
Bryan

OK - get where you are coming from now.

With my teacher, a question is never met only with words. Always there will be a demonstration - of the movement, major variations, distincations from others. Quite often you get hit with it to help explain the point.

After/ congruent with the physical explanation comes some words and theory. Then one will always be asked to perform certain movements to get the principles being discussed into one's own body, and not just seen and taked about in the third person.

===

Of course that presumes it is a decent question, asked at an appropriate time. If you don't ask much, then you generally follow along with the movement as demonstrated. When you consistently get it wrong, the mistake is explained and the correction made. If you blithely ignore this, you are generally left to do it your own way until you show willing to learn.

We generally place an empasis on practice first, talk later

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Many points here:

Firstly, theory of principles without experiential knowledge is of no use. Hence two ways:

1. Just do what I show you, keep doing it till your body learns the most eficient way to do it. Then my knowledge is your knowledge... actually not, because it is your own knowledge.

2. This is the theory, look for it and experience it for yourself.

RobT says: "With my teacher, a question is never met only with words. Always there will be a demonstration - of the movement, major variations, distincations from others. Quite often you get hit with it to help explain the point."

The last bit of what RobT says is experiential to the core. You get a taste of it.. first hand.

By the way, my knowledge of xingyi is minimal.. for the the record.

nevilleb

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Each man, one way;
Each horse, one stance;
Each church, one buddha;
Each master to his own technique.

I like the explanation of seeing the variables, seeing when it works and when it will not helps to grasp the reason it works. Humans by nature attempt to reason everything so learning the principals or reasons should be a natural approach. Not in just one art, they all work this way.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

"Quite often you get hit with it to help explain the point."

Yeah thats always the best part. Id always volunteer to get hit or twisted up. By the guy who knows how to do it right.

I do the same thing to my students. As a matter of fact sometimes i'll just pop one while I'm talking about it. he he he.
No I dont do that. I do let them know they are wbou to get it. Actually I tend to do it on everypone in the class. I get to practice it on all the different body types and they get to eat it.

I also do tend to really explain the physics of things. Angles rotation, leverage, momentum & intertia. All that stuff moreso that saying things about "Qi".

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One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

(fire points out the obvious)

I can see a definant difference in teaching style between Nev and Aqira. Although I prefer the first, I think the different paths lead to the same destination.

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"You're lucky buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I have the desire to kick your ass!" -Richard Gere- from the Simpsons

PaiLum ... I'm the one usually asking (in respectful voice) ... "can I feel that"

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus