strucutre and alignment

Good evening everyone,
In the spirit of exchanging ideas, I would like to initiate a discussion on what I have spent the most time focusing on in my personal training. As I have been taught, the key to everything in internal martial arts from health to combat relies on proper structure and alignment. This being the key, it has been considered the core of internal arts. The classical writings on the subject are generally made for those who already know. Or, as in the case of Chen taichi, Chen Xin's book was really nothing more than his personal notes. Now think about it, how many people could learn from any of our notes. Not to mention that the true path to internal development has traditionally been a closely guarded secret. With those things in mind, I think it would be interesting to examine san ti from a structural point of view. Then, discuss some tests to see if it any particular understanding is good/bad or whatever. From there, hopefully, we can all help each other to grow in our training.

Chicken leg, dragon body, bear shoulder and tiger's embrace are common terms to most hsingi players. In my website, I have written in a bit more detail than I have space for here, but allow my to give a synopsis. Chicken leg allows the lower body to be stable. Dragon body provides power, tiger's embrace and bear shoudlers keep the upper body unified and allows force to flow down.

Well, as a test, lets say from the san ti posture have someone push straight and hard without changing direction on the palm of the lead hand. Most of us can handle that. One simple test we do at our school is to have some one 50% bigger than you do it and see if you can get the force to go into the ground.

Well. I have written too much. There are many valid points of view. I think that a list like this is a good way to share ideas, but the downside is that it is hard to test theories. IF we can get some common physical standards, it may help us all grow.

I look forward to learning other's points of view. Then, perhaps we can all improve.

Would you please describe a chicken leg

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"I say, if you want to find out where the road goes, get in the fast lane and hit the gas." Calvin and Hobbes

Chicken leg refers to the manner inwhich the feet and legs are held. First, the toes must grasp the ground to secure the feet in their place. The legs are held as if screwing into the ground. The effect of which is felt in the knees which are inclined slightly inward. The heels will feel as though they want to push out, but the toes hold the feet in place. As a result of the inward inclination of the knee, the inner thigh is opened. The pelvis is relaxed and allowed to sit back and rest on the rear leg. The hui yin is raised. The focus of the balance should be on the bubbling well of the foot. The toe of the lead foot points straight while the toe of the rear foot points about 45 degrees outward. The knee of the lead foot should be above its heel. The distance between the two feet should be comfortable.

Dragon body refers to the turning of the torso in the direction of the rear foot. The head will remain looking straight ahead, however. A key point here is to relax the inner groin and sit back on the rear leg. The muscles along the ribs should also relax as much as possible to allow for good rotation. Do not rotate the pelvis. It remains oriented toward the front. Also, keep your posture straight and erect. The dragon body accentuates the intent of the lead hand to go forward and the rear hand to counter balance it to the rear.

Bear shoulder helps keep the structure sound by relaxing the shoulders and allowing them to roll forward from the side as opposed to hunching them over the top. Think of hollowing the chest through relaxation to help you fulfill this requirement.

Tiger embrace ensures the arms will keep a sound structure while sending and receiving energy. The palms will be hollow and the tiger mouth open (area between the thumb and index finger). You must always drop the elbow and sink the shoulder. This ensures sound structure and also acts to protect your ribs. Remember to relax and hollow the chest or there will be too much tension and your chi will rise. The index finger will be on the same plane as the big toe of the lead foot and the tip of the nose.

The importance of the four requirements above can not be stressed enough. If one of them breaks down then your structure will not reach it's potential and you may become vulnerable. One of the characteristics of the Shang Yun Xiang method of Hsing-i is that it does not matter what your opponent offers for a defense. Your structure will uproot his upon contact and you will be able to strike his center. If, however, your structure is lacking in the requirements you will not necessarily be able to accomplish this feat. The other two requirements come into play only when fighting or training with a partner. I will detail those in the next article when we look at the first of the five fists.

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It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

That sounds like the stance we take in our Ba gua walk. Is it similar

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"I say, if you want to find out where the road goes, get in the fast lane and hit the gas." Calvin and Hobbes

“	Well, as a test, lets say from the san ti posture have someone push straight and hard without changing direction on the palm of the lead hand. Most of us can handle that. One simple test we do at our school is to have some one 50% bigger than you do it and see if you can get the force to go into the ground.	”

Yeh, I mean that's the training right there, that's the basic test of rootedness and connectedness that I do with my students that I picked up from Master Huang, who lives in Miami, btw.

"That sounds like the stance we take in our Ba gua walk. Is it similar"

Well, Imagine san ti being twisted to the side. In my opinion, the basic key points are the same, but expressed differently.

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It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

JD what you explained sounds a little confusing, because what you detailed was specific for the structure of Santishi only, the five body's or requirements are for Xingyi as a whole, everything in it, wether your moving or standing still.

Could you detail it again in a more general way, perhaps

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...someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out.....fight is over....

The finer points may be different, one guy might say put your toe at this angle, et cetera, but the main things, rootedness, whole body unity will be the same and the same test can be applied to the stance as far pushing into the person's arm goes.

"JD what you explained sounds a little confusing, because what you detailed was specific for the structure of Santishi only, the five body's or requirements are for Xingyi as a whole, everything in it, wether your moving or standing still.

Could you detail it again in a more general way, perhaps"

I am sorry for the confusion, Please let me elaborate. Those structural requirements that I detailed ( chicken leg, dragon body, bear shoulder, tiger embrace) apply to everything in hsingi, not just san ti. They are literally structural requirements for every moment. Both static and in motion.

Lets try this as an example. Pick a posture...any posture. Now lets say that your posture is then disrupted by a push/strike whatever. One could say that your wuji alignment has been disturbed. The way back to that is by movement via the listed structural requirement. I am sure that most of us have heard that the source of stillness is found in motion. This is an example of that very thing. Now this begs the question, how does one move....that is a huge topic by itself which is worthy of discussion, but lets leave that alone for now. The structure and alignment that I detailed, allows us to maintain the alignment. As I have been taught, the purpose of any internal art is to change the body from the inside out. From a practical combative point of view, the result is that the body becomes a conduit. As force is applied to the body ( from a push/strike/lock) the force is dissipated into the ground so that the body is not disturbed. About a fraction of a second later (depending on the skill of the player) the attacker's root is broken (among other things). For more information on this subject..please go to my website and read my article on combative balance. For those of us who have tried the san ti pushign test that I mentioned in my initial post, how many times have we seen student have their arm collapse or have their front foot picked up off the ground. This is because the incoming force got stuck in their body due to a structural failure. This is a very very basic test of structure. For the more adventurous...try this one. Rootedness should not sacrifice mobility. Have someone 50% bigger than you push very hard into your lead hand. Make it a straight push with no following. Then when you have his force in the ground, pick up your rear foot and walk through him. This is a bit harder, but the solution is still found in the structure and alignment I mentioned. Damn.. I got long winded again.

Nah, man that's the truth right there. That's how I was taught anyway....

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

Anyway, could u please wind up a little more and define again the 4 bodies one by one, in general
Bare with me im a little slow

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...someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out.....fight is over....

Let me try this approach to add more depth to chicken leg, dragon body, bear shoulder, and tiger's embrace.

But, this is the weakness of this type of exchange, I am afraid that no matter what I, or anyone, says....some things just have to be felt and demonstated in person.....but enough of my whining...here I go.

Perhaps some of you have read that the legs should not be held in a V....that a U or arch should be present. Chicken leg requires that the heels rotate slightly out...this twisting has a spiralling effect on the knee and pelvis making a U.

Dragon body allows for lateral turning via the kua to stabalize the body ( for more info on how this affects the issuance of power refer to my article on internal power classics in my website).

Bear shoulder and tigers embrace keep the chest hollow by rotating and extending the shoulders while keeping the spine straight.

I am afraid that this may still not be a satisfactory explanation, but without demonstration it is pretty hard. The corrections for this type of structure can be very subtle. To many, they can not even see the difference, but it is clearly felt.

I look forward to hearing other's points of view on this subject.

Joseph,

It's all in the Xing Yi neigong - by Tim cartmell and Dan Miller

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May the force be with y'all.

Sun LuTang's book is a good reference as well for hsing i

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It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

"Rootedness should not sacrifice mobility ... when you have his force in the ground, pick up your rear foot and walk through him."

This is a great exercise - really shows up exactly how one is "accepting" the force and if one still has the freedom to move. The way the hips/ center integrate and work the alignements of the upper and lower body is key. (From what I've seen anyway).

"...alignment has been disturbed. The way back to that is by movement via the listed structural requirement"

Also bang on from what I have been taught. The better the practitioner, the smaller the adjustment, and the more "internal" the adjustment. I.e. the more one is making the adjustment from the center/ core the higher the skill level. Partly as one hasn't been taken that far off in the first place (else we require more movement). Partly as this sort of internal movement is quite subtle and difficult to acheive - it requires that much vaunted "connection" - or more precisely, the ability to use that small movement in such a way that full-body connection is restored.

Advantage of making the adjustment small is that the partner cannot read what has happened and thus cannot adjust. In terms of force-vectors (if I can use that term), the small adjustment has changed the game. Whereas the push was coming in at my center in such a way that my body/ alignement had to warp in order to hold it, now the push is not directed at my center and its power to affect me is greatly diminished. More than this, if the vector is "off axis" to my center, then it is easy to either power through and attack their center directly (Xingyi approach), or take their center through helping them a little further in the "off axis" direction they are trying to push in (essentialy Taiji roll back).

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To go back to the original question - there is an interesting balance to be acheived in maintaining proper alignment and naturalness of movement. Yes, the two should be/ are intimately linked. But ... many people spend so much time concentrating on their alignments that their subsequent movements are stiff and forced. Hence the benefit of the first point (rootedness in movement). Static tests can be cheated if one does not have the requirement of being able to move through the opponent - which is when naturalness and alignement coincide.

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus