How long?

Hi all,

How long do you think someone should spend learning each of the five fists.

i was told it was about a year of intense training in each.

This produces the body 'wisdom' that allows you to use the fists in all movents.

Your thoughts.

Chris

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Concentrate less harder on the 5e's, and more on the 12a's.

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Whoa...thought this thread was about something else.

Ahem-carry on.

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Wraith,


Bad, very bad. how quickly we will take a perfectlty normal thread and degenerate to sex talk. Start a new one for that, please

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Oh no...I uhhh...thought it was about how long training. Yeah, that's the ticket. I thought it was about how long you had been training, and that's an old topic.

Sounds like YOU'RE the one with the mind in the gutter. What are YOU thinking of

Ahem, but to the actual topic...I don't know. I still practice the basic 5. When we teach them we teach them together and not seperate. When you learn the basic strikes, all 5; basic kicks, all 5; basic throws, all 5; variations, all 5.

I thought the uneven practice of the elements would lead to internal problems though

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"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

hi li,

I was under the impression that the 5 elements were the constituant parts of the the 12 animals and without a deep understanding of them the 12 animals cannot be performed correctly

Each of the 5 fists are not there as basic applications but as lessons to teach movement principles and force vectors. Once you understand how these force vectors work, you can play with them using different intent and body movement as in the 12 animals.

This was my understanding anyway's. Would like to hear your thoughts.

As has been said before knowing how to perform one technique or principle with mastery is better than knowing how to perform 100 techniques poorly.

your thoughts

Regards
Chris

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When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

5 elements vs 12 animals ...

some style stress one, others the other. 12 animals pre-dates the 5 elements, so those who are very keen to keep things as pure/ original/ traditional/ close as possible to the original as possible will tend to stress the 12. In the meantime, there is 150+ year history of stressing the 5 elements in other lineages, so is hardly a new-fangled nonsense.

Of course, even older versions tend to have a basic set of 3 exercises only ...

As regards time: spending longer time on Pi (some schools, Beng as well) over the other elements seems to be the usual way of doing things. As regards actual amounts of time ... again, varries.

I spend about a year on Pi (though stressing the variations, two-person practice etc). 9 months on zhuang and beng, then was taught pao and heng.

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interesting Rob.

So the 5 elements are a focus of the key constituant movement principles found in the 12 animals

I would have thought the sequence would have been 3 old fists (good article on Jereks site), 5 element fists, 12 animals obviously not.

thanks for the info

Chris

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When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

I've always been under the impression that the animals came first in the time line of creation, and that the 5 elements were the simplified variants to give the newbies something to learn to allow the teacher to get on and teach the good stuff to the true students.

For me, now on the path to learning animals I can see that whilst it is important to learn the 5e's in order to understand the principles, they should not be dwelled upon, since the variants n such like all shine through from the animals.

Its almost like wanting to drive, passing the test but never getting the car...

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Different styles stress the variations at different stages. Some work with the variations at the 12-animals ... considering the 5 elements as basic power training and to be moved through onto the deeper material.

Others consider the 5-elements to contain everything you need, if approached at sufficient level and with sufficient exploration as to variation and application.

I'm being taught in the later camp

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Would you feel that if the 5 elements contains everything you need, then it would be pointless to have 12 animals

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Nope: it is often said of bagua that the single palm change contains everything that is then explored in the rest of the changes. However, it is far from easy to see all that the single change offers without having spent some time with the variations/ developments found in the other changes.

Same thing applies for the XingYi ... everything that you need might be in the 5-elements (note: this is "that you need" not "everything fullstop"). However, it may actually be easier (depending on style, approach and teacher) to get a handle on the development and implementation by looking at less abstract movements and forms (e.g. 12 elements). It then becomes a matter of perspective (needing to have reached a certain place/ level in order to look at something and see it in a new way).

Do we need the 12-animals Turn the clock back and neither they nor the 5elements existed. (Jarek has a good article on this sort of thing). Just different approahes to the same thing, in my opinion.

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

<Others consider the 5-elements to contain everything you need, if approached at sufficient level and with sufficient exploration as to variation and application.

I'm being taught in the later camp>

Take that...


<Nope: it is often said of bagua that the single palm change contains everything that is then explored in the rest of the changes. However, it is far from easy to see all that the single change offers without having spent some time with the variations/ developments found in the other changes.>

and that...

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I don't know about you guys, but I'm just starting my first animal form (dragon), and best I can tell, you never stop practicing 5 fists...you just get more and more added to it.

Maybe I'm mistaken, just my interpretation.

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how'd you like dragon

enjoying it

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