Lets Talk About *Intent*

A few weeks back I was introduced to Xing Yi via a seminar in which we talked about the Ba Shou forms, which are apparently the 2nd year of the Hebei Xing Yi curriculum, after learning the 5 elements. The school is a 3.5 horu drive a way, and so I cant justifiably go there for lessons on a weekly basis.

I was told it would be a good intro to Xing Yi, but being new to the internal arts, I feel I am lacking some basics. I hear ALOT about "intent" and alot about breathing.

It was my hope that we could have a discussion on intent, what it means, and hopefully, the proper ways to breathe, the "standing" that takes place before doing the forms, etc. My hope is that I can fill in some of those fundamental gaps I have and bring some internal meaning to the Ba Shou forms I am practicing every night.

Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks in advance! =)

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

Oh this ought to be good.

Also, do a search for a thread about how to use the eyes in combat.

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One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

Traditionaly (if one can use such a word given the number of styles, histories, and different training regimes) one started with two things: san ti shi and pi quan.

You trained them for a considerable amount of time (3 years was not an uncommon figure) before learning anything else. [Actually it was quite likely that you would be shown whatever extra conditioning exercises were required to get your body into the necessary shape ... but the chinese seem to have this strange habit of not counting ji ben gung in the "what you learn" stakes. Or to put it another way, such exercises are so fundamental to the art it is ridiculous, but one is usually taught them as repetitve and largely unexplained drills, the explanation coming later - i.e. once one has the necessary body knowledge to understand what is going on.]

What this sort of foundation does is twofold. Firstly, it builds proper body mechanics (both in terms of structure and how to move said structure). Secondly, it trains the proper focus and awareness of mind within the posture and movement.

To burble some more about specific points:
"...intent, what it means..."
this is the Yi in Xing Yi - translated as Form/ shape Mind/ intention. Yi is the intentional mind (using the term to mean "directed towards a particular object or purpose".) It does not mean "rational thought" per se, neither is it the abstract will. Actualy, the name of the art describes pretty much what is going on - providing one has sufficient understanding of the terms. It both means that the intention is on the physical shape and mechanics of what is going on and that the intention is one the energy or form of what is going on. It's a little difficult to explain (basicaly, intent both in the external and internal aspects of what one is doing).

"...proper ways to breathe..."
Yes, it is best to breathe. Deep (from the belly/ dantian but allowing the chest to rise and fall as it needs to - don't underestimate the power that you can get from the intercostals) relaxed and/ but powerful. Do not place any strain on yourself - natural and easy is best, at least until a teacher directly instructs otherwise. The most one might want to do is to gently align the intent and the breath - i.e. if san ti is developing power in the front arm and a forward orientated direction, let the breath fill this area and feel the area thicken and fill. Again, really difficult to describe - but there are some interesting demonstratrions to be made about the differences that this can give rise to.

"...standing that takes place before doing..."
That is does. Also usually after doing as well. Check/ ingrain good posture, develop the intent, "collect the qi" (i.e. get your breath back) etc. How to stand is a huge area - basicaly align the bones so that your weight sits properly on them rather than use the muscles to fight against gravity, the muscles relax (no tension - though by this word we mean western weight lifting type tense all of the muscle to rock hard) but some "squeezing" is preferred (i.e. don't let everything just hand, but keep everything "activated" particularly along the lines of force/ strength). Breath natrually and differntiate between pain caused by bad posture and muscular tension (bad - to be resolved by correcting the posture and carrying on - though a little shake out might help you correct the posture in the beginning) ... and pain just caused by the fact that standing training is hard work and your muscles will tell you so (keep standing as long as is "comfortable" - Note, different teachers have different ideas as to what this is. Some will have you stop as soon as it hurts. Others will have you push through until everythin relaxes again and the pain goes away - it does, as long as you learn not to fight yourself). Muscle pain is OK. Joint pain is not.

So much more can be said, but I'll need some specific questions to be getting on with.

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Thanks for that intro post Rob...It was quite helpful I think. Very much appreciated!
Some more specific questions as requested:

To go back to intent. You mentioned both internal and external intent of whats going on. As an example, are you saying, while standing, I should be thinking in my head, "My body is aligned, my weight is well distributed, and I am standing here, trying to relax....And I can feel energy moving outward through my body", etc During a drilling fist should I be thinking of the destination of my fist and the energy moving through my arm I often hear that the "objective" of the fists is not for combat. So what should I consider my objective in this respect I guess Im not really sure what else to ask about intent because it is still the idea I understand the least about. Ill try to ponder how to construct better questions in this facet. =)

After some practice with breathing/intent/san ti, should I expect to feel something You mention "if san ti is developming power in your arm...". How does one feel this Is it warmth Something that I have to experience before I can have any idea what the feeling is Will I know when it happens Is it something that takes weeks/months, or years (assuming diligent daily practice)

Do Tai Chi and Pagua practicioners develop internal power in the same way, ie intent and breathing

Lastly, once I can feel some level of internal development, how does it manifest itself in the world What actions do people do differently once theyve cultivated some level of internal power, aside from push people across rooms effortlessly =)

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

I'll bash off a few answers then sit back and wait for others to comment:

"...internal and external intent..."
By which I mean that one has to be aware of the external postural principles ... less of the "repeat after myself: I am aligned" and more of the "ouch, my elbow hurts, must drop it, let the shoulders sink" sort of thing. On the internal, this is a matter of which directions the force is flowing, the Qi if you will, the essence or principle of the movement rather than the movement itself.

"...the objective of the fists is not for combat..."
The fists are very much for combat ... only not so much in a "I will now reproduce the form for tsuan exactly as I have been taught it" and much more of the "I have drilled these bloody things to abstraction, and now if I just let my body move by itself, I hit the other guy flippin hard and with these kind of corkscrewing penetrating, kind of upwards rising thing"

"...should I expect to feel something..."
Well, you're legs and shoulders will probably hurt! Beyond that ... well there are things that you will probably feel, but don't worry about that and practice (in other words, don't feel that a particular sensation is it period, or you will never get beyond that particular sensation). At first it will hurt. Then you may experience heat, numbness, shaking, pain, swelling, throbbing, have I mentioned pain yet ... eventually this kind of all goes away and you just feel comfortable. Beyond that, I can't comment as I ain't there.

"...Do Tai Chi and Pagua practicioners develop internal power in the same way, ie intent and breathing..."
You get power by practicing basic movements a lot provided you do them well. Intent and breathing are a part I suppose. But so is walking a line and doing 1000 Pi Quan a day (as some old guys are said to have done). Best not to get too mystical before you have mastered the physical. Me, I can just about stand up now. But I really can't step properly ... so I'm working on stepping places without throwing my own posture off.

"...how does it manifest itself in the world..."
You manifest power more easily (you feel like you didn't do much even if the other guy protests to the contrary). You manifest power more precisely (you don't just splatter the guy over a vague area, you apply directly into the area of weakness so that principle of least action applies).

By the way, some of the things that I say may differ from your teacher or indeed other guys on this board. We're probably all singing from the same hymn sheet, but arguing over inflections of detail. The main points will usually be broadly similar.

Anyway, over to others

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

First thanks for the great info already; I see the internal arts as one family in regards to development. With intent we have a specific goal that is accomplished which can be anything. Many things happen to get to that goal so to be steps ahead of the current action creates achieving the goal that we have in the beginning and allows the goal to be achieved by the physical senses as well.

It is a circle of activity. Intent brings good fortune or disaster so be most careful in the beginning (and end) and make sure the intent is pure and not based on temporary things because all things are in a state of change most obvious with a resisting opponent. Those changes can be accepted and the goal is achieved after acceptance of the current situation then we may discover how those changes can be used for victory. Same with health accept what is and change along with everything else in nature using the reversal but also know the unchanging or the glue that holds matter together. Sorry to ramble but an awesome thread, intent

Robs got it covered.

However, intent for stupid people (me included):

"The go get 'em attitude of getting stuck in and not being a wimp"

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Wow, seems as if Rob has already covered a lot. Although from what I've gathered from the question was intent in a different meaning.

For me, intent comes through a mindset. When my arm moves, it's not really an arm.... it's more like a ball and chain. Arm being the chain, ball being the fist. I also imagine that my arm weighs a thousand pounds and that it takes a lot to raise, but nothing to drop. For me, intent is more of a visualization.

Like Rob pointed out, people have different theories, but the same core basics.

When going through stances, what has helped me is actually going through a checklist as I get into my stance.

Ex: feet shoulder width apart.... toes in, knees bent over the feet...... butt in...... back straight...... head errect, etc.


Breathing is done on it's own, and along with excercises. Chest fills after Dan Tein is filled (allowed from over flow), exhale from same point. This should allow you to remain loose and relax, which is the main goal.


Just my thoughts................

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman Although from what I've gathered from the question was intent in a different meaning. For me, intent comes through a mindset. When my arm moves, it's not really an arm.... it's more like a ball and chain. Arm being the chain, ball being the fist. I also imagine that my arm weighs a thousand pounds and that it takes a lot to raise, but nothing to drop. For me, intent is more of a visualization. Like Rob pointed out, people have different theories, but the same core basics.	”

That definitely is a very different approach. Truthfully, I dont know from what meaning my question was aimed, as I still dont quite have a grasp of "intent" in the Xing Yi sense yet...

Would you both agree that your differences in approach have led you to the same place and continue to lead you in the same direction Is there any generalization that can be made about what principle you two share in common that can be attached to intent to make it..."work"

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

We practiced stepping in air today. The intent was lifting the foot and to be able to change in any direction while stepping similar to mud stepping lifting the whole hip, this also set up proper body mechanics for a kick with the empty foot going back and fourth between left and right.

In meditation the intent changes from circulating, expelling, mixing and so on with external tapping and movements or not. To me specific intent creates the function governed by the sprit.

There is an abstract quality. Being the sprit of everything, a human can reflect or influence everything around it. Being inside, the mind acts on everything around it, and objects being outside, have there principal in the mind. Mind acts inside and every object forms outside. Both sides including internal and external is connected by Chi.

“	Originally Posted By: PlumDragon That definitely is a very different approach. Truthfully, I dont know from what meaning my question was aimed, as I still dont quite have a grasp of "intent" in the Xing Yi sense yet... Would you both agree that your differences in approach have led you to the same place and continue to lead you in the same direction Is there any generalization that can be made about what principle you two share in common that can be attached to intent to make it..."work"	”

To be honest, my statement has no connections to Xing Yi principles. But as you can see, they are a little similar.

Different approaches may lead to different directions. I cannot say that Rob or others here will come to the same conclusions as myself. All that matters is the ability to remain calm, and be able to direct your energies where it's needed. But that's a different "intent".

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Intent is haveing fire shoot out of your eyes, and a laser beam from the third eye chakra on your forehead and following it with your hands like they were fired from a cannon.

Its like your spirit jumps out of your eyes like an other worldly tiger and takes a huge bite out of the heart of your opponant.

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One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

And yet another example of intent. Along those same lines of thought, intent is making everything you hit.... explode. Not so much physically (outside), but internally (inside).

I'm quite sure there'll be other opinions coming out.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

That's awsome Pai I would like to train with you! The physical devestation that follows those movments will crush the opponent before they have a chance to even get out of the way. Do people often choose to not fight with you

As a matter of fact yes. That has happened often. lol

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit