5 Elements only

Ok, I learned the five basic elements fist for Xingyi this last year and have been doing some practice and research. Got a couple questions I was hoping someone here with more experience could answer for me...

1) Does each technique's "explosion" of power come on the follow step I had one gentlemen show me the wood (peng) punch with the impact before the follow step. I am assuming it is just a differentiation between xingyi styles and teachers.

2) Since I already practice other martial arts and have enough trouble with upkeeping everything I am planning on only practicing the five elements and not going into the animals of xingyi. Any thoughts on this Will I still achieve skill

3) Lineage question. I researched through my teacher and the net what the lineage of the particular 5 elements I am working on is and cannot go too far back, anyone able to help My lineage is here: Eric Eastman, Tchoung Ta-Tchen, Yuan Tao, Wai Feng Shih... and thats as far as I can find. Anyone know the next step(s) Anyone know much about Yuan Tao I cannot find a lot about him as far as info.

4) Do you ever practice your 5 elements very slow and soft My teacher advised me to work this way each day 2 soft techniques for one hard technique. I find it difficult to feel the structure and body connection going very slow although it is easier to adjust small things in each technique.

5) Breathing The last 3 teachers I practiced xingyi with all use a shortexplosive breath out on the actual explosion of each technique, I find this method works very well for me but would like to know if anyone has learned other breathing techiques

Thanks for any responses I can get...

eightfist

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“	1) Does each technique's "explosion" of power come on the follow step	”

Not everytime. Most of the time the front foot/strike are coordinated. Some Beng Quan systems strike when the front foot comes in, others do it when the rear foot comes in.

“	2) Since I already practice other martial arts and have enough trouble with upkeeping everything I am planning on only practicing the five elements and not going into the animals of xingyi. Any thoughts on this Will I still achieve skill	”

Yes. Train hard enough and you'll have skill.


I haven't heard of your lineage...maybe the names are not in pinyin. Try to find the correct pinyin translation and I'll find the lineage for you.

“	4) Do you ever practice your 5 elements very slow and soft My teacher advised me to work this way each day 2 soft techniques for one hard technique. I find it difficult to feel the structure and body connection going very slow although it is easier to adjust small things in each technique.	”

There are many ways to train XY forms, depending on what you want to achieve:

- Slow to middle speed, flowing; breathe naturally: Helps you open the tendons and the energy channels. Also helps you to concentrate on alignment. Good foor when you are cold and you start practice. start training slowly and then increas eintensity.

- Fast, crisp, sharp breath. Good to train strategy, technique and power. Be careful and don't get tense.

- Slow transition, fast strike. Good to train power on the move.

Also, have in mind the stages of Xingyi, and consider that in the first stage (Ming Jing), the steps are heavy, the breath is sharp and the posture is very aggressive. After a while, when moving to the next level, it gets 'softer'-

“	5) Breathing The last 3 teachers I practiced xingyi with all use a shortexplosive breath out on the actual explosion of each technique, I find this method works very well for me but would like to know if anyone has learned other breathing techiques	”

Read above. It depends on the execution of the form and what youtry to achieve.

Hope this helps

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Aja

what Felipe said.

Just that in the beginning, do the movement and breath naturally - don't hold and sink the breath.

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Thanks!! Good answers, and right in with what I had been told (and thought). However with answers come more questions...
1) This is the only spellings I have for my lineage stuff, I guess Yuan Tao was suposed to be fairly well known but I cant find much on him, sorry.

2) Could you outline more about the levels of xingyi I have not gotten much feedback about that before...

Thanks! It is good to know that even with only the basic 5 I should be able to atain some measure of skill. I practice every day, I am really enjoying the internal arts more and more and more... It's interesting since my teacher has practiced for 30 years and almost exclusively practices only the 5 elements form, linked and individual set and he generates some pretty amazing power.

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I am curious...

Does anyone know how the elements were mimicked into strikes Is it just the form of the motion made doing the strike that reminds the striker of wood, fire, water, etc

Obviously each element has different properties, but what makes the difference in the human body. Is it just the motion that classifies a strike as 'wood' or 'fire' Or it is the energy inside the person and the way s/he moves; that resembles the element

I've been learning some I-ching pretty recently and I learned that the Chinese define the things around them with the elements. Like supposedly a chinese general who was always watching and recording the present moment, learned to predict the future through this; and it was developed a lot after the general as well. And that their culture has a lot of the elements integrated into their words meanings. Unlike europe or America for example. Kinda like masculine and feminine words - but with elements instead - which goes into a broader description of ying and yang.

But is that what it's like

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“	Originally Posted By: JKD327 I am curious... Does anyone know how the elements were mimicked into strikes Is it just the form of the motion made doing the strike that reminds the striker of wood, fire, water, etc	”

Actually, in the beginning there was no correlation between the elements and the fists. (Old masters didn't think of the elements when creating the five fists). The association was made later. Remember that the actual names of the five fists don't have any relation with the five elements.

The Dai Family branch (Previous to the Xingyiquan you see nowadays, amnd the first Xinyi system to include the five fists) doesn't use too much association of the five fists with the elements. Li Nengran (The father of Xingyiquan as we know it now), was the first master to associate the Five Fists of Xingyiquan with the elements, and he make the necessary changes to the forms improve their correlation.

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Aja

“	Originally Posted By: JKD327 I am curious... Does anyone know how the elements were mimicked into strikes Is it just the form of the motion made doing the strike that reminds the striker of wood, fire, water, etc	”

The strikes were named for the elements destructive nature and there link back to each other see below:

Wood Pounds Earth
Earth Soaks Water
Water Quenches Fire
Fire Melts Metal
Metal Splits Wood




The first technique is Piquan, translated as Splitting or Cutting Fist, and is associated with Metal. It is used as a wedge with which to 'split' and deflect opponent's attack while simultaneously attacking. The mental image the practitioners concentrate on is that of an axe splitting a log.

The second fist (following the Creative cycle) is Tzuanquan, Drilling Fist, which is associated with Water. The image is that of water suddenly bursting through the dam and sweeping all in its path.

The third one is Pengquan, Crushing Fist, and it is associated with Wood. The image is that of an arrow hitting it's target.

The fourth one is Paoquan, Cannon Fist, associated with Fire. The image is that of a flame suddenly leaping out or a bullet leaving a barrel of a gun

The fifth one is Hernquan, Crossing Fist, associated with Earth. The image is that of a large rock rolling down a mountain.


they each create / destroy / counteract each other given in sufficient quantities such as a big roaring fire and not enough water the fire is not extinguished but rather the water is vaporized.

Wow, so much to concentrate on...water...boulders...axes...

...sounds like a scene from Indiana Jones!

And what happened to the fighting in the meantime Oh yea, it stopped because everyone was day dreaming... :-)

Names are Names, Element Names are Element Names, and fighting is fighting. It would make no difference if they were called 1,2,3,4,5 or a,b,c,d,e. Same stuff. Therefore, dont think - fight!

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anyone know whre some clips of the 5 element forms are???

li xiao long, these are not to be concentrated on only to be used as a learning aid

“	Originally Posted By: Shang Zen li xiao long, these are not to be concentrated on only to be used as a learning aid	”

dont work. sorry.

Eight fist,

Regarding the elements vs. the animals, I think you might be very sorry in the long run if you don't learn the animals. The few animals I know really expand my understanding of the five elements that those animals correspond to. I would recommend picking up the whole system if you have the chance, then you can pick and choose what to specialize in. If you don't have the whole system, then you will be forced to refine only what you have.

As far as your lineage is concerned, it seems to come through Taiwan. Yuan Tao is featured in Robert Smith's book, particularly "Chinese Methods and Masters" and the original Hsing-I book (not the newer edition). "Methods" states Yuan Tao as learning xingyi from Wu Yun-ting, not Wei Fang-shih who taught Yuan Tao a system called liang-i.

Hope this helps.

Dave C.

Hi all,

Another book to check out is-- HSING YI CHUAN Theory and Applications by Master Liang Shou-Yu and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming.
It contains qigong, the five elemental fists, a combined form of elemental fists and twelve animal shapes, and also contains a two person set called Ann Shenn Pau. It was published in 1990 through Yang's Martial Arts Association.
I'm not sure if this book is in accordance with your lineage, but it has a lot of good info just the same. Best of luck!

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Om Mani Pedme Hung

Tony Chen of the O-mei school also has some good stuff on VHS (dont know if it is on DVD)....BUT....i thought that it was more into just "showing" the forms and not so much into the teaching....but there is some "teaching"...it is a okay tape, but that is just a warning.

the animals will help you understand the 5 elements more...but you have to have a strong foundation in the 5 elements to to really perfrom the animals right....plus the animal forms are fun!