vid of ME!

“	I have been led to believe that, in hsing i at least, you are trying to use your forward momentum to produce the striking power (Dark jing) and not the snapping action(Bright Jing) produced in the arm/wrist	”

This is a common misconception.

A classical Pi chuan is made up of a series of elements combining to produce the total power output of the movement.

Monkey wrist, heavy elbow, shoulder power, scapular power, intercostal muscle contraction, gravity, forward momentum from stepping, dung power from the kwa, lau gung point, lung power, breath etc etc

any one of these aspects have a very powerfull application of force.

In the clip you are talking about i use monkey wrist and heavy elbow to shock the guard and strike the head. this is different to the muscle contraction of or spasm of a wing chun punch power generation method.

You are talking about the application of Pi chuan the form - not Pi chuan the energetic direction or line of force. There is a big difference. Hsing i can be applied in a stationary position, in a confined space, moving forward or moving back, the prefered is to move through the opponent but this isnt always available.

hope this helps your practice.

Chris

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... also the foot raising was to enable a kick as his attension was brought up........ no need as he retreated.

... paul hates it when i catch him with those ......

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Just wanted to say that Chris is right.

A monkey wrist uses whipping power that hits and snaps back, using the recoil to attack again, wether with a strike of the same nature, or in a different direction.

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“	Originally Posted By: paulandrews1982 I'm really not qualified to criticise on Hsing I matters as I've only been training for a couple of months but I'll have a go. In the second pi chaun in the last set of vids you posted the pi seems to hit and you retract quickly. I have been led to believe that, in hsing i at least, you are trying to use your forward momentum to produce the striking power (Dark jing) and not the snapping action(Bright Jing) produced in the arm/wrist (e.g. Wing Chun punches). I know you don't want to knock your buddy out or smash his skull but shouldn't your pi have stayed out and not snapped back Also in the same vid it seems that you almost lift off and step back as you pi. Again I thought the forward momentum should be used and the rear leg to be solid in the san ti position(although i know there are other variations on pi). Not sure if this is any help, as I say I'm a raw beginer and I have lots of flaws myself so i'm probably not the best person to comment.	”

in yip man- jim fung linage, wing chun punches don't snap.(nothing wrong with snap punches) they are very much driven with the elbow and have the body behind each strike.

if you see different it is because they are doing chain punching and not doing it correctly. because the punch is vertical and delieved from the elbow (elbows close to side and directed to centre) and that weight comes from the shoulder it should have the body behind.

I was refering more to the apparent snapping motion, the pull back just after contact that wing chun chain punches generally exectute (heavy hand, power from the centre, impact, light hand, pull back) not a spasm or jerk of the hand as such. Anyway I didn't want to move this into a wing chun discussion I was wondering why chris wasn't using a forward heavy attack in his Pi.

I've still to learn much of Xing I and I'll look out for using the monkey wrist in the future but for now I'm still tring to get the basic Pi chaun with the forward momentum and power behind it. Thanks for the advice I'll be thinking more on this when I practice.

“	Originally Posted By: paulandrews1982 I was refering more to the apparent snapping motion, the pull back just after contact that wing chun chain punches generally exectute (heavy hand, power from the centre, impact, light hand, pull back) not a spasm or jerk of the hand as such. Anyway I didn't want to move this into a wing chun discussion I was wondering why chris wasn't using a forward heavy attack in his Pi. I've still to learn much of Xing I and I'll look out for using the monkey wrist in the future but for now I'm still tring to get the basic Pi chaun with the forward momentum and power behind it. Thanks for the advice I'll be thinking more on this when I practice.	”

yeah i don't really want to turn it into WC thing either. I haven't done Xing I but from what i can see on the video clips etc it looks really similar to good WC.
the elbow use is the same as wc just that we have form arms and hands in front. essentially same motion heavy elbow with body behind it.

also the going through motion is also really similar.

where can i find out more about the xing I

do you relax teh body/shoulder and root to get the elbow power

hi darkhorse,

To my knowledge - the power generation in Hsing I and Wing Chun are quite different.

From the Hsing i point of view, you are looking for one HUGE strike that will finish the encounter immediately, all power training is geared to this goal and every ounce of power is squeezed out of the most simple and small of motions. From my knowledge exchanging with wing chun guys, there doesn't seem to be this constant expression of force in every movement. There seems to be gaps in the power output. this does not take away from the effectiveness of the style but is a distinct difference with Hsing I.

If we look at the up to down with forward aspect, direction of Pi chuan, the main elements that constitute this 'pi power' are:

gravity power, monkey wrist, heavy elbow, shoulder power, scapular power, though the back power (connecting the front and back arm), spine wave, dung power, rib power, lung power, forward motion, breath, intent, lau gung, chi, spiralling in the joints, dan tien rotation.

Individually some of these elements are enough to seriously injure, combined ...... well that one big HIT will be very big!

Another difference may be mindset, below is how my teacher describes this

“	Xing Yi forces through, attacking your country even if you must sacrifice a third of your army to win. Emotionally you never give up.	”

energetically.

“	Xing Yi is a battering ram. Your body feels like steel on the outside but your feel soft as cotton inwardly	”

every art has similarities in outward appearance IMO - but the way they feel to the partner can be the difference. this is not easily shown in video's.

thanks for the responces, saying it looks similar to good wing chun can only be a compliment!

kindest regards
Chris

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Hey Chris thanks for the info.

I think I get you now. I would love to feel the power and look up a Xing I school nearby.

I felt the one inch punch by my master and holly.....

If a master at xing I can generate more power than I am looking forward to seeing (perhaps not hit by it).

sounds very hard to generate such co ordination and master such body movement.

I agree with Chris that Xing I is a very different art than Wing Chun but there are similarities as you could probably find in many chinese styles, if you look at Wing Chun 6 point pole the movements are similar to Xing I spear and in soem cases performed very much the same but they both have different martial aspects and purposes.

My Wing Chun teacher advocates using a technique he calls "heavy feet" which is basically the same kind of way Xing I generates power through forward movement in a three body posture (weight back but front foot and strike land at same time so the mass travels into the strike). It isn't the same as Xing I aqnd not developed to the same level as Xing I but it is similar and as I've not seen it in Wing Chun before I assume it is either an advanced technique or something he has added himself as he has studied a number of other chinese martial arts.

As Chris says the power generation in WC and XI are very different but both can be effective. I read a great article by Sifu Jim Fung (Is that right, he teaches in Australia maybe you know better), about WC power generation and body mechanics, it relates everythign to basic physics and how mass and acceleration are used then the strike hits and produces a shock in the opponent. This is what my XI teacher calls "bright jing" the strike stops as it hits and causes like a shockwave into the body of the opponent.

The XI strike as I know it is more of a continuous motion. A Beng punch is easier to describe this than the Pi but both have the same characteristics. The XI strike uses more mass or body weight for power than the WC punch does (which relies on speed or acceleration). The XI practioner strikes and then continues to move through the opponent (like a wrecking ball). The strike uses body mechanics to align the arm/wrist/fist but in reality most of the movement is body orientated, when doing a beng my XI teacher says it is like you are an asteroid with a little arm on the end, the arm is what hits but the power is all behind it (dark jing). Added to XI strikes are the other components Chris was talking about like the spiral in the joints, breath and intent etc. which add extra nasty hurty bits to the strike.

The other things I find really interestign about XI is the motion. The footwork is so fast for what is such a powerful art, in XI it is called chicken legs which refers to one of the 12 animals used in the art, and also you have to remember XI is primarily a battlefield art and all the motions can be done with a variety of weapons, in fact XI was formed with weapons in mind and they should take more emphasis than unarmed, but it isn't feasable to carry a twelve foot spear along the street. Some of the weapons include single and double jian (straight sword), spear, tsi (double sided needles), hammers, great sword (ma dao), many other and even bow and arrows. In fact the application of XI movements can be given to most weapons and works unarmed, a number of great chinese prize fighters were Xing I practictioners.

I think what I enjoy the most is the variation in Xing I, with Wing Chun you get one martial art which is great and has its beauty and subtlety, but with Xing I you get I suppose 13 martial arts (5 elements - basic Xing I fighting techniques, and 12 animals). The trick with Xing I is the "thousand branches" one motion can lead to hundreds of responses, counters and attacks, from 12 animal fighting you have many movements you can chose and it is finding the correct ones that is the trick once you have the basics. Xing I and Wing Chun both attempt to create a strategic advantage for yourself over the opponent by placing yourself on the opponent's weakest position, either by manipulation of their arms and centreline (WC style), or more from footwork and displacement of the opponent (XI style). Xing I seems to be the more rounded art as it covers such a wide area of martial expertise but I look on WC as a great art itself which covers areas that XI doesn't look at too much.

I think I've said enough now and should get back to work before I get sacked for abusing my use of company time :-)

I train under sifu jim's school.

the shock wave you refer to is more at a very advanced level.

example; when i punch i try to punch through the target and trying to co ordinate my whole body to be behind the punch. also like an astroid but with little arms at front.

sifu does the one inch punch as a demonstration but in reality he can deliver the punch to stay in the target so that it drops em.

One of the senior instructors did a demo one day.

He had two very large Maroi's (from new zealand) come in to spruke it up a little, both reckon they could take the one inch punch.

through a telephone book (it helps spread the punch so less damage) he moved the first guy back four feet. (this type of hit the demoed one inch doesn't actually hurt, its more like your standing there one minute and standing somewhere else the next, very much like time warp)

the second guy had the punch not go through but stopped in his body mass. the result was he just fell to the ground.

Having had both done to me but the second not by anyone of sifu's level, it feels like the punch power goes through your body and into the ground. You just drop. you really feel it go it go through your stomach.

most of the senior instructors can deliver this sort technique in most of their moves like the latch, elbow, cut down, hook kick. its a real heavy feeling.

PPL like sifu and his master choi tsai are incredible at it. when looking at it on video it doesn't seem real. the guy getting hit seems to jump backwards. even seeing it done on someone else you are left doubting. having it done to you is the only way which i expect is the same as the Xing I which is why i will hunt it out. the video on this forum showing the sinking elbow are cool.

thanks alot for everyones explantions and time spent on it. stoked me out.

Xing I seems to be the more rounded art as it covers such a wide area of martial expertise but I look on WC as a great art itself which covers areas that XI doesn't look at too much.

what areas are you talking about I would have thought that XI has it all covered.

our chi sao is just used to break down the gaurd same as XI. the only diff i guess is that WC chi sao develops a virtual round spinning orb out in front of the body. so when the arms connect, the force other persons force will roll off the orb/ball. add a pivot in the direction of the force being moved and the person will move even faster.

the trapping hands bit (and i could be really mistaken) is not what you are trying to achieve in WC. you are trying to hit through first and formost. if the hands are trapped then that is good by product but not the priority.

my understanding is that we are trying to finish the fight quickly not play handsies.

the elements that go into WC aren't as complex as Xing I.

there is intent (or called forward force or chi), there is body relaxation (from head to two), structual alignment (ppl call it stance but its from head to toe), definetly the dantein and learning to spin it if necessary (this torque comes into the billgee form)...................is this starting to sound familiar thereis the heavyness ie weight comes from shoulder into elbow (in fact elbow and knees are ends of a pendulum type movement and hence is what is used to aim at target..usually centre).

Darkhorse,

Not to distract you from the posts which have been put so far, but to elaborate on points which I think may help you do differentiate between xing yi and wing chun.

First of all the basis for xing yi derives from 'san ti shi' or 3 body posture:


This incidentally, is the same 'ending posture' that you arrive in when doing 'pi quan' or splitting fist. It gets its name from being a downward strike (usually to the head or upper chest).

Where Paul refers to bright and dark jings, he is infact talking about the differences of how the punch is generated. On Chris's vids, you will mainly see 'bright' jing - that is, quite whippy fah-jing like explosive punches. Unlike a standard blow, these have the ability of generating vast amounts of force and delivering it in a rather short space of time. Thus, when connecting you dont necessarily feel the impact of the blow (it could be quite light), but rather the shockwave effect that follows from it.

Dark jing - which incidentally is what both Paul and I do (we're part of the same club and his si-hing) - is more of a stunning blow. Imagine that when an object comes into contact (of similar size) with another, the laws on conservation of momentum generally means that the first object usually slows down or stops moving, to let the second object move away either at the same or slightly reduced speed.

In terms of a punch, this means it accelerates in - makes contact and slows down - then accelerates away.

However, with dark jing (hei jing), it is much more of a stunning blow, and that of a battering ram. Consider an object of such great mass hitting something of so little - the laws of momentum would deem that there would be little or no effect to its speed or trajectory. In real terms this means that our punch accelerates, makes contact without decellerating, and drives through at the same or accelerates away. It has a different feeling from the bright jing approach, but is equally painfull! The approach to using these blows is not to cause damage (although they actually do), but rather to stun the opponent into re-thinking his game plan. The more he/she thinks, the slower they become, the more opportunity we have to get them etc.

This jing derives from the methods used in Xiong Ying Xing (bear eagle strategy) whereby, the eagle can take out prey much larger than itself by using the force created from diving/swooping, and slamming the prey into the ground, from where it can deliver the killer blow.

Putting this into comparison with wing chun - and in particular chi sao - I would say that where in wing chun you aim to find 'gaps' to attack through, in xing yi we just create them. We have no specific targets to aim for, as even punching your arms or hands in the methods used above will cause considerable pain. However, the biggest difference that one would notice is that xing yi is not a 'smart' art in that the practitioner seeks to develop a strategy for fighting. Instead, it seeks that the student be open to suggestion and reacts harmoniously (eek I sound all floppy taichi-ified!) to the opponents movements. This spinning orb that you speak about, is there in xing yi - infact despite contrary popular belief that xing yi is linear, there are lots and lots of circles and spinnging bits and bobs - mainly around, in through, and on the opponent!

The pendulum motion that you describe is that of 'fah jing' or explosive power. It is probably best described by bright jing - though the mechanics would need to change in order to be bright jing.

As for the intent (Yi, of Xing Yi), it is different from chi (qi). In xing yi, the Yi can be thought of on two ideas:
1. Understanding and utilising correct structure
2. That go get'em attitude.

Firstly, yi training through xing yi is developed by zhuan zhang (standing post) training in san ti shi (see pic above). Secondly, it is trained through fighting (be it 5 elements, 12 animals, free fighting, or set routine fighting). What it is trying to do is show you the 'heng'. The heng (not the movement) is the momentary line of weakness through someones movement that allows you to attack with most likelihood of success. By being able to spot the heng, allows you to be more responsive in character and movement to the oncoming technique. The only method of being able to do this however, generally comes with a lot of pain and bruising!

The chicken legs that Paul describes, is of the footwork. I guess to a beginner the footwork does indeed seem fast - and this is what a fighting chicken is famous for - however, when the practitioner becomes more proficient at xing yi, and spotting the heng, the footwork becomes less of an issue. You tend to automatically move into the right place/space at the right time. I think though, the biggest difference between xing yi and other arts, is that we tend to move from the loaded (i.e. weight bearing) foot. This is contrary to other arts I have seen in that their arguement is lack of speed. Well, I can disprove that theory!! The reason for moving from the loaded foot, is that it provides the ability to produce 'thunder sound' i.e. the heavy footing that is discussed. However, the feet aren't especially heavy, but moreover light, with great rooting. When a foot touches the ground it is solid and unmoveable. The thunder sound comes from the force of the foot being driven into the ground, producing another shockwave which assists in the jing being transmitted through the hand into the opponent.

-=continued=-

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-=continued=-

As for the stances, there are 6 key principles which are used, and two have already been discussed:

• Bear shoulders
• Tiger embrace
• Eagle claws
• Dragon body
• Chicken legs
• Thunder sound

By understanding each of these key components, leads you to an understanding of how blows are delivered - and hence Pauls description of an asteroid with a spike on the end of it. While we can see in the picture that 5 of the 6 principles apply, the 6th comes into effect on movement. This is what makes xing yi so daunting to fight against.

(If you know someone who does it, I strongly suggest you have a go at them, just to feel what its like)

By incorporating the above principles, it allows the xing yi practitioner a greater degree of movement, strength-in-structure, defensive capability while attacking with a certain degree of safety. The more he stands still the more likely he is to be hit! Thus, you often find xing yi fighters 'taking the fight' to the opponent - note not necessarily starting the fight, but at seeing the heng and then attacking on that line. Additionally, taking the fight doesn't mean standing there mano-e-mano at arms length, but moreover walking through the opponent, occupying their space - all the time reacting to the opponents movements to seek the heng and attack it.

Finally, as Paul says, Xing Yi is primarily weapons based. This itself has been through the fact that it is one of a few arts which have been battle tested (note not fight tested). It was used to reclaim China from the Jin (nomadic tribes similar to mongols), and developed to fight against their strategies. Therefore, while 1 person can do xing yi, equally, 200 people can stand closely side by side and continue to do xing yi. In lateral movements it is very compact and allows great continuity. Including this into weapons, there are several sites which can go into more detail than I can here.

To get a flavour of the types of weapons, here is the Zhan Ma Dao (big battle sabre):


Thunder sound:


Seeking the heng with spear:


Seeking the heng with tsi:


And finally application of pao quan with archery:
http://www.xingyiquan.pwp.blueyonder...y/aiming_w.jpg

For further information, you can by all means check out my website:
http://www.xingyiquan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

I will be more than happy to discuss any topic.

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Oops apologies for mammoth pic!

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Thanks for the more eloquent explaination and the great pics, I like the look of the archery, must have a go at it some time.

I was going to add a little more about the differences of WC, namely the sensitivity training in Wing Chun is geared to feeling the movements of your opponent's body/limbs whereas (I think) Xing I is more about looking for the "heng" and responding without the need to feel the movements beforehand. The final outcome is the same, you get into a better position than your opponent only WC operates on a close range, limb manipulation with lots of stikes and XI operates with more range and greater variety of options.

I agree XI is more rounded but WC has specialist areas, such as chi sao which XI has equivalents of but not the same by far. And as said, the Xi I practice is very much "dark jing" but the wing chun methods I practice are "bright jing".

Finally on "inch punches" apparently there is a video someone at my wing chun school has of my sifu doing the inch punch on a 22 stone tai chi guy and he just crumples to the floor. In the same vid my sifu smashes a block of granite too! Both done with bright jing punches I suspect unfortunately I haven't seen the video.