Judo is the best...

Unkotare · #46 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 12:42 AM

I'm glad some one got it!

Inferus · #47 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 08:10 AM

I have taken a Judo technique performed by a 5 yr old onto a concrete floor. It hurt a LOT more than being thrown by a 40 year old bloke hard into tatami (mats)

Lugaldamhara · #48 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 05:06 PM

Exactly what hurt most? What part of your body? Did either one come close to knocking you unconsciouss?

I am assuming the 5 year old is a 2nd degree black belt and the 40 year old is a 2 week beginner...?

**Mei Hua** · #49 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 05:59 PM

Funny enough, I've been slammed on concrete hard before, and other than a thump when I hit, didn't seriously do me any damage, that could be partially because I know how to fall, but still in those circumstances that wouldn't play much in the way of help.

Where I've also been slammed on matts that hurt worse, so who knows?

Inferus · #50 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 06:00 PM

Cam, no it didn't mate.

The 5 year old was a little guy and obviously I didn't resist his throw, but because I know how to break fall the part of my body that hurt the most was my hand it was throbbing painfully and was red.

However, I train with a guy who threw someone once in our dojo onto the mats and broke about 4 ribs down one side, and his shoulder.

I think with Judo, if you know your breakfalls, you can fall relatively safely onto most surfaces, however to a novice they would probably of been thrown on their face/collar bone/elbow/whatever and break it/them.

Oh and if you are wondering why I had to be thrown by the 5 year old on concrete, I was teaching class and did something silly like we were play fighting and my sensei thought it would be a good opportunity to show the parents why we do the breakfalls as one or two had asked.

Since then I am actually quite happy that I practice the only martial art that uses the planet as a weapon

Unkotare · #51 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 06:29 PM

The only?

**Mei Hua** · #52 (**permalink**) August 20th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Not the only, we use wood and metal in ours, which also come from the planet, as does the human body

Ranger · #53 (**permalink**) August 25th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Some things about falling surfaces.

Mats are much more forgiving to people who suck at falling, even with gentle partners. The main reason is that when they forget to tuck their chin when falling on their back and crack their head on the pavement. But this won't affect experienced Judoka/Aikidoka (and so on).

One thing that will affect us, however, is slapping on impact. Don't do it on pavement. It will hurt like hell.

The reason that there isn't much concensus on judo fall injury is that Judokas in the school aren't trying to kill you. We throw gently so that our opponents can fall correctly without hurting themselves. If you're up against a jerk (as I have been on a few occasions), even outside of sparring/randori, you can get injured. Injuries are pretty common in the rougher Judo schools, and mine has no shortage of people on the bench from their various serious injuries during competition and so on.

I'll write more on it later.

Lugaldamhara · #54 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 05:14 AM

“	The main reason is that when they forget to tuck their chin when falling on their back and crack their head on the pavement.	”

As I stated earlier, that is a big point of contention. On concrete the skin on the scalp can split causing bleeding... just like all sharp bony points of the body including elbows, knees, shoulders, etc..

“	One thing that will affect us, however, is slapping on impact. Don't do it on pavement. It will hurt like hell.	”

In the Praxis system we don't teach that "slapping on impact" thing. I come from a gymnastics background and tend to adhere more to the wrestling mentality... tuck and roll with the momentum and use it to your own advantage instead of trying to stop it. The whole idea of "slapping the mat", even though it's rather defeatist and lame, is about absorption of impact. The physics of it is about dispersing impact over a larger area so the impact is less in a general sense... But the overall idea is still focused on absorbing impact. When there is no other alternative, it's a rather good idea. But there is always another alternative... It's the "jiu" in Jiu-Jitsu....

We don't do that. We train to use momentum, no to stop and absorb impact.

Also, I was referring to commoon MMA ring/cage matting. It's not nearly as soft or forgiving as standard judo matting. Of course, standard judo matting will also KO you if you get thrown onto it correctly.

For the people that don't know what judo matting is...

Wrestling matting is about 1 inch thick and very soft. It's good to wrestle on but I would not want to get slammed on my head on it. Also, it's so soft that it's horrible to do any standup on. I am amazed that there aren't more knee injuries in wrestling considering that wrestlers wear shoes. The matting will catch the feet because its so pliable.

(doing striking techniques like punches or kicks where the legs and hips are torqued are very dangerous on this kind of matting as the mats "grab" the feet and will not allow them to pivot... I have seen many knee injuries becaue of this)

Judo matting is normally 2-3 inches thick. It's more dense than wrestling matting and as such is better to do standup on because it doesn't "grab" the feet as much. Conversely, judo is done barefoot and the mats do not grab the bare feet as much as they grab feet with shoes and wrestling mats are a little more pliable than judo mats so they don't "grab" as much.

Most MMA is done on the common 7/8 inch puzzle matting. It's denser, harder and doesn't grab. Most boxing rings, MMA rings and MMA cages also have matting of similar density, being 1" EVA foam. They often have a vinyl or canvas tarp stretched over it, making it even tighter. Underneath it is uaually 3/4 inch plywood. It's not very forgiving at all. It's very forgiving on the joints and bony protrusions when grappling and is firm enough to do stand-up techniques on but getting dropped on it from 3 feet or more is really no better than getting dropped on a sidewalk.

That being said, I would not want to get slammed on any of the above. wrestling mat, judo mat, or MMA mat... it's all hard when getting dropped from 3 feet or more and will all KO you if you land on your head. The main difference is the hard surfaces (skull) and bony protrusions (knees, elbows, shoulders, etc.).

Unkotare · #55 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 05:29 AM

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara It's the "jiu" in Jiu-Jitsu....	”

Actually, "jiu" would be something like a 'welcome rain' or something.

Unkotare · #56 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 05:33 AM

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Wrestling matting is about 1 inch thick and very soft. It's good to wrestle on but I would not want to get slammed on my head on it. Also, it's so soft that it's horrible to do any standup on. I am amazed that there aren't more knee injuries in wrestling considering that wrestlers wear shoes. The matting will catch the feet because its so pliable.	”

I don't know what super-spongy mats you have been on, but I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of injuries in wrestling (and enjoyed more than my fair share) but can't recall one caused by mat-foot-catching. I've seen dopes break their toes trying to wrestle barefoot, but can't blame the mat for that.

Unkotare · #57 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 05:35 AM

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Most MMA is done on the common 7/8 inch puzzle matting. It's denser, harder and doesn't grab. Most boxing rings, MMA rings and MMA cages also have matting of similar density, being 1" EVA foam. They often have a vinyl or canvas tarp stretched over it, making it even tighter. Underneath it is uaually 3/4 inch plywood. It's not very forgiving at all. It's very forgiving on the joints and bony protrusions when grappling and is firm enough to do stand-up techniques on but getting dropped on it from 3 feet or more is really no better than getting dropped on a sidewalk.	”

Now, having dropped and been dropped on all of the aforementioned surfaces A LOT, I have to disagree with this conclusion.

Lugaldamhara · #58 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 06:06 AM

“	Actually, "jiu" would be something like a 'welcome rain' or something.	”

Sorry, I'm using the Brazilian speling... the one that is really effective...
But anyway... Jujutsu= Gentle style and Judo - Gentle Way... so from deduction, I would assume Ju= gentle....

“	I don't know what super-spongy mats you have been on, but I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of injuries in wrestling (and enjoyed more than my fair share) but can't recall one caused by mat-foot-catching. I've seen dopes break their toes trying to wrestle barefoot, but can't blame the mat for that.	”

I've been on "hundreds and hundreds" of spongy wrestling mats and I have seen numerous knee injuries because of such... granted most of them I have seen weren't in wrestling matches but in an MMA environment. But you can go to YouTube and find a lot of knee injuries due to mats in wrestling matches. My little brother showed me about 10 or 12 a few weeks ago and asked me why I do the things I do...

“	Now, having dropped and been dropped on all of the aforementioned surfaces A LOT, I have to disagree with this conclusion.	”

Same here, and I disagree with your disagreement.

**Nik** · #59 (**permalink**) August 26th, 2007, 06:16 AM

I disagree with all of your disagreement, into total disagreeing, with everything.

Actually, physics says that the smaller the surface, and the shorter the time of deacceleration, the greater the impact. The energy is the same, in total. So with say a 2' concrete ground with sand bed, the time of deacceleration gets near zero. You already get this when doing stomping exercises on that, or on the same concrete floor not in the basement, which swings because there is just air under it. In the basement it HURTS. Ram your head into a concrete wall, and then do the same with a pillow in between. Energy identical, but the time frame is different, making for a bit more of uncomfortable feeling. The lung compression, and impact on muscles, might be the same, if falling. It depends on how your bones make contact, round, or not so, this affects them differently. A head slam on a mat might cause concussion, but it won't break the skull. On pavement, it happens, and it does not look nice. Imagine a fountain, in a Cthon manor, of that Blade series.

Ranger · #60 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2007, 06:23 PM

I don't claim to be some uber wrestler, but I have travelled around to a lot of different mats. Many of them I've fought on weren't for wrestling at all, like in Karate/TKD schools and so forth. I've practiced on collegiate wrestling mats, on the giant crash pads, Judo mats and all kinds of improvised mats...grass and pavement too (although pavement would be a rather rare situation indeed).

My results have always been the same.

I am absolutely firm believer in tucking your chin on the fall...I can't imagine any standup system of grappling that wouldn't have this in it. I took out a BJJ fighter just the other night when I was merely practicing o-soto-gari with him (not randori!). I was going very kindly, on that cushy Judo mat, and I'm no pro, but he didn't tuck his chin on his falls and on that time he bounced his head off the mat and stayed down for an extra 15 seconds before he could get up. This was a very gentle throw against an experienced BJJer on a soft mat that was in practice, so he knew it was coming. This is about as charitable a position as I could give to someone that didn't tuck their chin against a really common take down. Heaven forbid it be done on hardwood or concrete.

I can see slapping being debated. On mats, I think it makes perfect sense, but having taken grappling to pavement on that rare occasion (or sometimes just falling off the edge of the mat during randori at my old school) it can really be painful for your hands. But the difference I feel between falls with and without slaps are pretty significant. Remember, not all slapping is created equal--there are wrong ways to slap that won't work. There are particular angles to hit the mat and so forth, and the timing has to be right. But I've had falling training from multiple discplines and consider myself fairly talented at that little skill...and for me personally, I can feel a difference on falls.

In regards to some later debate, foot catching can cause problems, as unlikely as that sounds. Sometimes the rest of your body moves but the grip on the mat for one foot is enough to keep it there for a little too long. I wish I could see my last big injury in replay so I could understand it better, but I caught one of my teacher's kicks and before I could do anything he went to a crab-scissors take down and when the rest of my body fell to the floor, one of my feet got stuck and twisted the ankle pretty badly.

I'll probably write more later.