Rising to the Challenge...

FightingFat · #1 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 03:08 PM

I've been challenged- it's really quite exciting! It's all I've been thinking about training this week and I thought I'd ask you guys if you think it's worth a shot before I go to my Sigung and ask him if I can drag the association into it!

It all started a few months ago when we were visited at Crouching Tiger by a young lady who runs a martial arts school nearby. Very attractive, I don't mind telling you, but also a national champion in freestyle martial arts fighting. We chatted and it turned out she started in Shotokan, but mixed in a bit of TKD and a bit of Kick Boxing and now she runs this club. We went down to the lesson and watched them train, then we showed them a bit of our stuff- all very nice.

The lady then mentions she has a tournament coming up and would we be interested in competing. Sifu Tony smiled and explained how the Wing Chun we train was far too nasty for a Karate based competition and didn't lend itself to anything 'competitiony'.

Later, back at the shop, we had another visit. Now as I've said before, I trained Goju Kai for a number of years and used to compete regularly. I had been thinking about the offer and was wondering how we could water down WC enough to mix it up with these guys. Chatting it over, the lady in question ended up saying 'Bring it on- we're not afraid of you'.

Now baring in mind there's no kicks below the waist, no grabbing, no pulling, no take downs, no finger-strikes or elbows and only punches and kicks above the waist count- I would need to move along way towards my karate training to be able to compete. I will use grabs and spoils because that is Wing Chun and doing otherwise means it is pointless saying I am taking part and using WC- I might as well enter as a Karateka.

I have been back to the dojo this week and talked it over with some of the Karate dan grades I know.A result of which is that I know then as far as sparring is concerned I won't have a problem dominating the fight, with the exception of the blasted kicks! Especially the spinning back kick to the midsection. Now I have trained the theory of WC vs Kicks. I know it's supposed to be easy to overcome and I know how I'm supposed to do it. It practice I found it a little different.

Anyone got any tips, comments or abuse to hurl at me

Allan_Tsang · #2 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 04:36 PM

only know what how well you do based on rules. Since you do not train that way or at least for a while - it's really their game.

When I "play" like that - i end up holding back too much - I don't do it anymore if I can help it.

Unless you can make them do it with your rules before or after to make things fair.

If I am a betting man - I'll bet on them to win this "game".

People who focus on fighting more come out of these saying
1. I punched them more but the points was asigned to them
2. My strikes were to more dangerous spots
3. They didn't see the strikes - too fast.
4. They didn't see the open hand chops and palms
5. They discounted my foot checks and kicks to back of knee (out of reflex)

etc...etc...

If you can put up with losing to points - go for it.

FightingFat · #3 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 05:34 PM

“	Originally posted by baichi Could you expand on this a bit more	”

I was alluding to the fact that 85% of techniques I would normally employ in a fight using WC would not be recognised as scoring a point, or as a valid strike in the type of Karate competitions I've been a party to where the strike has to be well executed, with control and an obvious and palpable hit.

WC was invented by a woman and originally didn't employ punches at all, just slashes and slices with finger nails and chops (or as Aqira often puts it- Chinese slap fighting). It is small movement based (economy of motion) and relies on multiple aggressive attacks, tying up or 'spoiling' an opponents hands and feet and sharp grabbing and pulling.

In it's purest street defence form it's too pokey and proddy for a Karate comp!

FightingFat · #4 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 05:36 PM

I totally agree Allan and think I will have to be prepared to lose the 'game' though I may learn something about my style and gain some added respect for my opponent's style. They have a points competition and a 1min30sec light continuous, I thought that the latter might be a better option

vap · #5 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 06:21 PM

“	Originally posted by FightingFat Sifu Tony smiled and explained how the Wing Chun we train was far too nasty for a Karate based competition and didn't lend itself to anything 'competitiony'.	”

Ask your sifu to try out Kyokushin karate tournament. He probably won't repeat the above statement again.

**StormMountain** · #6 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 07:00 PM

Gee, FF, I guess that depends:.............are you a fighter or a martial artist!

.

Man, I would just go in there and box them straight the heck up! What level of contact are we talking about here Make sure they are aware of little trapping and unbalancing things you do are valid techniques in your style, cause they certainly won't recognize it as anything but brawling.

I mean, just hit them hard!

Of course, I might only spar with them contingent that in a couple of weeks, they come to your school and spar with yall according to YOUR rules!

Allan_Tsang · #7 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 07:15 PM

<Of course, I might only spar with them contingent that in a couple of weeks, they come to your school and spar with yall according to YOUR rules!>

That was what I was gonna say - then left it out.

Only thing is - if both kick to knee and biu jee to eye - there will be heavy casualties. The jik chung chuey/leen wan chuey seems to work well on in a lot of karate tournaments - just won't get the points but you will have them back pedalling - then do the almighty side kick or their trade mark round house or a straight forward chicken kick and knock them out of the "ring"

JKD327 · #8 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 07:42 PM

I haven't read anyone else's replies to this yet, but I think...

You should not accept her challenge unless they allow it to be free competition. Meaning you can do anything but some obvious things like kicking to the uebos (

), etc.

I've found out on my own that watering down what you know/apply for someone else's satisfaction is a bad thing to do in any type of competition. She says she isn't scared of you guys, yet wants to compete in a 'freestyle' competition with your school. Lowering yourself to their level isn't a good thing to do.

JKD327 · #9 (**permalink**) November 8th, 2003, 07:50 PM

Just read them all.

Like Storm said, go in there and box them up!

I'd do that. IF you are well rounded (I made a good pun

), you should know more of what WC implies, and the more basic sides of WC relational to typical Karate. Although that goes against "the secrets are in the basics," I mean just punches, kicks, and blocks.

Lance Havock · #10 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 03:35 AM

Personally, I think you would do fine. There is a Guy that teaches WC in J-ville, Anothey Arnette or something

, but the bulk of his students do point sparring, and he at some point was a kickboxer. But I say Do the Point, you get to grabb for a few seconds in that, the continuos you would just get DQ'ed after too many grabs. AS far as techniques, back fist to the face, since you only need <insert number of points>, just be faster. Since you Do WC, the only kicks I would worry about are those that change direction. I have limited experience on WC, but a guy did cross train at my TKD school. He had a problem dealing with stuff that didn't come straight at him. So that is what you get without me actually watching/sparring with you

And One more thing, don't take that shizzle personal. And don't lose either.

Necronos · #11 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 04:20 AM

For me, there are two ways to approach that:

1st - Take it as a competition and show them what youre made of! Check them hard, bash them whenevery they come close and... well Sorm said it. And considering your physique and training, a few good hits to the midsection, even if padded will.. discourage most people from going close to you.

2nd - Take it as a sparring exercise, play with their rules, and don´t mind about the score, go and have a drink with them afterwards.

The funniest way would be, afterwards challenge the winner of the tournament, give him/her some padding and do a "demo"

Allan_Tsang · #12 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 08:39 AM

<The funniest way would be, afterwards challenge the winner of the tournament, give him/her some padding and do a "demo" >

Hahahahahaha

This guy, a kick boxer, once said, you pick the biggest guy, do a demo with/on him, "soften" him up then spar. During the demo, you apply all the pressure point, the pokes, the prods etc.

I think that's not a bad gig.

Not my style but this guy used to be a movie star and now do the seminar circuit or at least MA college camps etc so he needs all the tricks of the trade he can get his hands on.

Philip · #13 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 09:40 AM

“	Originally posted by vap Ask your sifu to try out Kyokushin karate tournament. He probably won't repeat the above statement again.	”

Oh really They teach you to shatter knees, tear out eyes and break elbows/noses too Wing Chun is called a martial "art", but most people who see it used the way it's supposed to be used will call it something else.

Ranger · #14 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Personally, I think it would be better for you to just beat them up as if you were sparring, ignoring the rules. Sure, you'll lose, but they'll be broken in half, and that's a moral victory, at least.

At the same time, just doing Wing Chun doesn't mean you'll stomp them. Everyone thinks that their style is oh-so super lethal, even if some people are wise enough to not actually say it. Find a good balance between confidence and humility, or you might be surprised.

**Nik** · #15 (**permalink**) November 9th, 2003, 11:30 AM

In short:

IF you're good at Wing Chun, you can use the Chi-Sao manouvres to block/redirect their punches, open a line and get a few whacks to the head in.

You DON'T have to strike at the eyes always, legions of WC people did rooftop fights without it, just knocking out each other with strikes to the chin (rumor says, because they didn't have money for cinema, and did that just as their sort of entertaining).
For my understanding, it's a good sign of POOR Wing Chun if you cannot fight without striking throat and eyes. You should always be able to nullify attacks using the blocking manouvres, pull them out of balance, and hit them with good old straight chain punches to the f***** chin. This usually has some effect on everyone. And, it doesn't kill. Really! No fun.

For kicks, it's a game using the distance. If they're too fast, you would not manage to stick and disable the kick by closing in so they can't straighten their leg. Probably the only choice is to back up out of the kick, and close in afterwards. On the other hand, the Wing Chun tactics is to stick and press forward so they don't have TIME and SPACE to fire kicks. You can keep too close for kicks, and never backup, but stick to Chi Sao manouvres to get away their arms firing short strikes to the head and ribs out of all guns. _Keep_ _close_. There's plenty of space around them to occupy finding entry. Don't fight on a straight line keeping in ideal distance to feed you with kicks. This is not (poor) boxing. This is called fighting smart. Footwork. Diagonal steps. Evasion to the side, closing in immediately out of the evasion. Diagonal entry, seeking bridge, move arm and fire. Either you can do that, or you're not good enough. It's not about something "missing" in such approaches. Just in your dictionary.