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Old July 7th, 2008, 11:56 AM
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UFC 86: Griffin vs. Jackson

I was really hyped for the fight and to be honest, I didn’t really have a favorite for this fight. I was, however, rooting for Jackson. So when the end came I was expecting it to be a close split decision win, but I DID NOT see the same fight the judges saw. I saw either Jackson winning or it being a draw. This is just another prime example of bad bad bad judges…like the guy who had Evan Tanner winning a few weeks ago. That was completely bizarre.

I would not have minded if Griffin had won deservedly, but from my perspective he lost. Now it was close, but Jackson was landing just a little more shots and staged Griffin a lot more. The most damage Jackson seemed to take was to that left knee.

At any rate, as per usual, FightMetric provides an interesting look into the outcome of the fight: http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Griffin-Rampage.html .
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Old July 8th, 2008, 12:49 AM
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Actually, I had Forrest winning 3 rounds to 2, as did many professional fighters (there is a thread about it on the UG). I agree it was closer than what the judges saw and I was afraid it could go either way depending on what the judges were looking for, but this was not a case of "bad, bad, bad judges"... There have been many cases of bad judging lately, but this wasn't one of them.

I like both fighters but Forrest is a personal friend so I was rooting for him by default.
I do believe it was a very, very close fight and deserves a rematch.

There was no damage to the knee on Rampage. The kicks were to the common peroneal nerve, not his knee.

Also, fights aren't judged on who does the most damage... that is one small criteria and not even primary or secondary.

Forrest landed more shots but Rampage did land the harder shots.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara View Post
I do believe it was a very, very close fight and deserves a rematch.

agreed...

I think Rampage, being the champ, should have given it just a bit more
was kinda disappointing IMHO
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Old July 8th, 2008, 04:36 AM
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UFC 86 Fallout: Possible Protest, Rematch

Although Quinton Jackson (Pictures) lost his UFC light heavyweight title Saturday to Forrest Griffin (Pictures) in a grueling 25-minute bout, his camp is ready to keep fighting.

Jackson's coach, Juanito Ibarra, plans to protest the unanimous decision with the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

"We got robbed," Ibarra told Sherdog.com Sunday afternoon. "We won the majority of the fight."

Judges Adalaide Byrd and Nelson Hamilton scored the bout 48-46 for Griffin, while Roy Silbert turned in a 49-46 tally for Griffin.

It's extremely unlikely that a protest would change the outcome of the fight. Ibarra isn't hopeful in that regard, but less than 24 hours after his fighter had lost in the UFC for the first time, the coach seemed determined to learn exactly how the fight was scored.

He was baffled that Byrd and Silbert gave Griffin a 10-9 advantage in the first round, during which Jackson dropped the challenger. In Ibarra's view, the knockdown warranted a 10-8 round in Jackson's favor. He believes Jackson won the third and fourth rounds on 10-9 scores, though he said Griffin deserved a 10-8 second round and a 10-9 fifth. That comes out to a 47-46 win for Jackson.

"You have to beat the champion," Ibarra asserted more than once.

Randy Couture (Pictures), a coach and training partner of Griffin, gave a slight edge to the new champion.

"I thought that it was a very, very close fight," Couture said. "I thought that it was three rounds to two [for Griffin]. I thought that Quinton did enough to win two of the rounds clearly. I thought they may have been able to give Quinton a 10-8 round in the first round with the knockdown and then the second round you could have given Forrest a 10-8 round.

"And it could have went the other way. If one or two rounds went the other way, it could have been three rounds to two for Quinton. It was that close."

Strategies and execution

Couture's concern before the bout was a reasonable one: that when hit, a brawler at-heart like Griffin would resort to brawling.

"He has always wanted to bang," Couture said. "From the Bonnar fight on, just a brawler. That's what he thinks is exciting. That's the way he likes to fight. But at some point he realized that's not always the wisest choice, especially with a guy who hits as hard as Quinton."

The plan was to stay on the outside, use angles and footwork, work a long jab, a long hook and then finish with a kick. The kicks, as it turned out, did major damage, hobbling Jackson in the second round and changing the course of the fight.

Griffin did venture inside a few times, however, and paid for it. He took an uppercut in the first round that floored him and was cut over the eye in the fourth. Ibarra wanted Jackson to lure Griffin into more exchanges.

"I wanted Rampage to stay in the middle of the cage and make Forrest fight him," Ibarra said. "I think Rampage would have knocked him out, or hurt him and grounded and pounded him."

Griffin fought a smart fight, though. He never stayed inside for long. Instead, he chipped away and kept moving, occasionally stopping to drop a heavy kick into Jackson's lead leg.

"I thought Rampage needed to use his speed more," Ibarra said. "That's what was so disappointing in the fifth round: There was no speed, no combinations. Forrest is so long, you have to beat him to the punch. You have to be the first to set up that jab."

Ibarra also felt Jackson should have thrown more body shots. But make no mistake, even though he believes Rampage could have performed better, Ibarra is certain that he performed well enough to keep the belt.

Couture had little criticism of Griffin's execution, though the fighter didn't hesitate to critique himself.

"I'm happy with the way things turned out," Griffin said at the postfight news conference, "but there's a lot of stuff I planned on doing that I didn't do, a lot of things I worked on that didn't work out."

Wrestling, for one.

"Wrestling is something that we've worked on a lot since the Jardine fight," Couture said. "That was the one piece of the arsenal that [Griffin] was missing, and I think everybody knew that after some of the submissions he had in other fights that his ground skills were good. Everybody knows that he's a brawler and that his striking is formidable. He had no transition skills at all, so there was never a threat. … It's something we worked a lot on, but he didn't have to do that much last night."

Griffin was having success striking from the outside, but Jackson's wrestling skill and punching power also deterred him from wrestling more.

"He's got that one-punch power," Griffin told UFC.com on why he didn't work more from the clinch. "And a couple of times he hit me in the head or hit me in the shoulder, and it could have been a knockout. So I kind of pushed off and rested."

Possible deciding factors

After hurting Griffin in the first, Jackson planned to put him away in the second round.

"That's when I was fixing to go for it," Jackson said at the postfight presser. "He threw me a whammy. He hurt my leg. That's what messed me up."

Couture agreed: "I think the leg kicks hampered Quinton's mobility enough that he wasn't able to close that gap and get that inside range where he's very, very effective and very explosive."

Jackson also said he probably had "a little cage rust" after not fighting since September 2007. However, it had been just as long since Griffin last competed. Couture pointed to Griffin's size -- "We saw that as a big advantage in this fight" -- and his aggression as helping him get the nod.

"I think in the third, fourth and fifth rounds, Forrest carried the aggression in the fight," Couture said. "He was pushing the pace of the fight, controlling the tempo of the fight. Even the times when they were on the ground, Rampage wasn't able to damage Forrest. Forrest was able to scramble and get back up. He had the one nice submission attempt with the triangle. I think that [aggression] was the biggest difference."

Jackson said Griffin didn't hurt him on the ground either. Ibarra echoed that statement and added that Griffin's offense, including his submission attempts, should not have trumped the work Jackson did with his hands.

Ibarra on rematch: I got it

The unanimous decision for Griffin was greeted with cheers and some boos. Exhausted after the biggest win of his career, a significant upset that had made him a UFC champion, the 29-year-old thanked the audience at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas.

More boos followed -- the inevitable result, no doubt, of any close decision.

"Hey," Griffin responded. "What the hell? What? What? Are you kidding me? Come on."

He acknowledged that the fight was close.

"And I don't want to because he hits too f---ing hard," Griffin said, "but I think we're going to have to do that again."

In the Octagon after his loss, Jackson seemed to admit defeat. "He just whooped my ass," Rampage said, but later, at the postfight presser, his perspective had changed.

"I feel like I won the fight," he said. "When I think about it, and my cornermen and other people who watched it, they thought he won the second and maybe the last round. And I won the rest."

Despite changing his opinion, Jackson remained respectful.

"I didn't want to leave it up to the judges," Jackson said. "But you know what? I didn't think Forrest could hang with me. I said if Forrest gets past the third round, he'll gain my respect and I respect him. And if I ever fight him again, I'm gonna respect the hell out of him with my right hand."

According to Ibarra, there is no "if" concerning a rematch.

"I got it. I got it. I'm not waiting. Next fight," said the coach, who explained that he approached UFC President Dana White and co-owner Lorenzo Fertitta in the Octagon about making a rematch. "I asked for it, immediately, in the cage, and Forrest agreed. The rematch is going to go like I first thought. Forrest is going to try to do more, and next time he's gonna get beat."

Said Couture: "It could be the next big trilogy in the weight class. It was a terrific fight, a back-and-forth battle, and that's the kind of fight people want to see again."

Given some time to ponder another bout with Jackson, Griffin wasn't backing down. Besides, he doesn't exactly envision an easy run as the UFC light heavyweight titleholder.

"I'm not a feared guy, but the thing is, I'm going to fight you for 25 minutes," he said. "Whoever you are, anybody at 205, I'm not going to break. I'm not going to quit. It's the same s--- I always say. I'm not … you look at the champions. Anderson Silva: terrifying. B.J. Penn (Pictures): terrifying. Every other champion but me is pretty terrifying. I'm just a dude trying to put it together. But the one thing I've got is I'm going to fight you to the end, like a dog. And other than the third round [against Jackson], where I decided just to kind of hangout, lay on my back there, I feel like I did that. And next time, I'll bring it better."
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Old July 8th, 2008, 04:39 AM
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I think this quote says a lot:

"You have to beat the champion," Ibarra asserted more than once

and it was a pretty close call, so it wouldn't be strange to hand this one to Rampage

I just hope for a good rematch
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:21 AM
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As I stated, I was afraid it could have gone either way.

Judging criteria are as follows...

Attempt to finish the fight (this is where submissions count a lot and Forrest had the only two real sub attempts)

Striking (As stated Forrest scored more but Quinton's were harder)

Grappling (Forrest had this hands down as he controlled the action on the ground and defended Rampage's slams well)

Control of the range and pace of the fight- Forrest dictated the pace of the fight and was always moving forward with Rampage backing up and counter striking. It's hard to win a fight moving backwards.

Damage- Forrest's face looked worse than Rampages but Rampage's leg was jacked up and damaged which isn't visually evident like bruises and swelling in th efacial area.

Based on those criteria Forrest clearly won, although by a very close margin.

Ibarra wants boxing protocol used by saying "you have to take it from the champ, etc..." but if we use boxing protocol no boxer ever won a fight moving backwards except Ali and Mayweather...

I have seen MMA judges that come over from boxing and give out horrible decisions based on their lack of knowledge of the sport or either their bias towards one aspect of the sport. I was afraid the judges would judge on the main aspect of damage done and compare Forrest's face to Rampage's face....

Forrest dictated the pace of the fight and outworked Rampage. I think that's what won it for him.

A rematch has to happen. They should have just let that fight go another 3 rounds....
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara View Post
They should have just let that fight go another 3 rounds....

LOL...

/off topic
found this:

Vreel > Education > bedroommedia.co.uk - fight 86 A

Vreel > Education > bedroommedia.co.uk - fight 86 B


divx stream of the whole event...
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Old July 8th, 2008, 09:51 AM
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I dunno...I talked to some more people about this fight and it really is split. Some people say Griffin squeeked by and others say Jackson was robbed. I still believe Rampage should have won that fight.

But I would definitely say another 3 rounds are necessary to give closure. I love Griffin as well, and greatly respect his fighting style and attitude. But I just can't see him as a clear champion after that fight. It was just too close.

I will admit though, I am probably getting hypercritical of the judging because of such terrible scoring lately.

And as much as I want to see Machida defeat Griffin...I want to see Jackson-Griffin #2 even more.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 11:02 AM
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To quote a foumous person "To be the man you have to beat the man". And apparentely thats what he did weather people like the decision or not.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jade_Dragon_03 View Post
To quote a foumous person "To be the man you have to beat the man". And apparentely thats what he did weather people like the decision or not.

Meh, I don't agree with the decision so I don't consider him "the man" yet. Maybe the rematch will give a clearer champion.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 12:05 PM
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A rematch would be nice. It will be a good one.
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Old July 9th, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Forrest Griffin has a championship under his belt??? SWEET!

And what they say in that interview shows exactly why I like Griffin and dislike Jackson. Several of "Rampage" and his teams statements show poor sportsmanship and attitude. Contrast that to Griffin's talk about not being terrifying but going at it and never quitting-a great attitude.

And I TOTALLY disagree with a judging edge being given to a champion. It should be judged evenly. All that should matter is what happens in the octagon that night! Period. Past history should not count. If you are such a great champ, you don't need to be given an edge.
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Old July 9th, 2008, 04:44 AM
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Kinda boring fight but i gave it to Forrest for sure.
These two fights otoh made me very happy...

Jorge Gurgel vs. Cole Miller Video - UFC 86 | MMA Videos

Corey Hill vs. Justin Buchholz Video - UFC 86 | MMA Videos
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Old July 9th, 2008, 10:23 AM
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I loved the Cole Miller fight and was pissed I had to wait and DL it from the website. Same thing with the Burkman v. Hazelett fight from Ultimate Finale.

And since I am obviously swinging around on Machida's nuts, he stated that he thought Rampage should have won the fight. Although he also threw a conspiracy out there that they gave it to Griffin so that Chuck could have an easier time getting it back.

And I disagree with you Aaradia. In the ring Jackson was very humble in defeat, but you could tell he was pissed about the decision. I think after stewing on it for a bit, along with very vocal coaches, he dropped the pleasant visage.
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Old July 9th, 2008, 10:47 AM
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When is Chuck fighting next? Is he going to be fighting in the next PPV event? Who do you want to when between Griffin and Chuck? I'd like to see Chuck win and then a rematch with him and Quinton Jackson. I'd like to see Chuck beet Jackson BUT I think he's got Chuck's number, if you know what I mean. Maybe after 2 defeats it will motivate him to win that much more.
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Last edited by Jade_Dragon_03; July 9th, 2008 at 10:50 AM.
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