Palm Strikes are USELESS

All I can really see are disadvantages to palm strikes. I have based this on my own personal opinions and analysis of the alignment. This is comparing a palm strike to a punch.

1. Less Range. A punch has the length of your hand added onto the length of your arm up until the wrist.
2. Less focused damage. The damage is spread out more along the heel of the palm, rather than being focused on the tips of your two knuckles from a punch. When the force is focused like this, it injures specific points better, especially good for strikes against smaller weaker areas and stuff. Especially prominant for guys who know how to pop out their knuckles, though I'm not sure how.
3. Softer surface. I know personally I seem to have a lot more flesh on the top of the heels of my palm than I do on my knuckles.
4. Less tension. The tightened first through residual tension will help you contract and snap your triceps to strike and biceps to reload. While you use tension to pull the wrist back, it isn't as much.
5. Less safe for the wrist. In a punch your wrist is locked in the middle of it's range of motion. In a palm strike your hand is folded back nearly to it's extreme ROM. Were that area to be hit, it would break the wrist far easier than what would happen in a punch.
6. Less safe for the fingers. The fingers are exposed and can be hit dead on, and broken just like the wrist, especially if not all of them are hit in the impact. In a punch the fingers are curled inwards to protect them, and cannot snap as easily going that way because the palm is there to stop them.
7. A wider and easier target to block. An open palm is taller than a closed fist, so any defense will be more likely to both notice and stop it simply because of this size.

I do however, love the way palm strikes look, and would like a way of knowing any ways they are more effective, and how to release this effectiveness. I love the way Neji and Hinata use them!

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Tyciol (too new for a signature)

You build the proper strength in the wrist/hand/fingers, and using palm strikes doesn't bother you.

You can focus allot of energy into just the heel of the palm, and it does more than a punch.

Bagua has a palm strike which is at least 5 times more powerful than a punch, years ago I studied with an IMA instructor, after a few years I got good with this technique, but one time we had a few new students and he did a demonstration of the effectiveness of this strike. I got lifted into the air and thrown back by about 5 maybe 6 feet into a bunch of my brothers, while some could say this was fa-jing, he claimed it wasn't, just the use of technique.

I would choose an Iron Palm over a punch any day, much more effective.

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“	Originally Posted By: Tyciol All I can really see are disadvantages to palm strikes. I have based this on my own personal opinions and analysis of the alignment. This is comparing a palm strike to a punch. 1. Less Range. A punch has the length of your hand added onto the length of your arm up until the wrist.	”

If that's an issue then the problem is that you don't know how to punch.

“	2. Less focused damage. The damage is spread out more along the heel of the palm, rather than being focused on the tips of your two knuckles from a punch. When the force is focused like this, it injures specific points better, especially good for strikes against smaller weaker areas and stuff. Especially prominant for guys who know how to pop out their knuckles, though I'm not sure how.	”

Focused damage only really causes cuts, spread out damage is more likely to cause brain trauma and is more likely to result in a knockout. If you're hitting hard enough it doesn't matter how you hit, you'll get a KO either way.

“	3. Softer surface. I know personally I seem to have a lot more flesh on the top of the heels of my palm than I do on my knuckles.	”

That's an advantage, you won't break your palm like you would you knuckles.

“	4. Less tension. The tightened first through residual tension will help you contract and snap your triceps to strike and biceps to reload. While you use tension to pull the wrist back, it isn't as much.	”

Not an issue, the power comes from body movement, if you're relying on increasing power from your arms then you have a weak punch to start with.

“	5. Less safe for the wrist. In a punch your wrist is locked in the middle of it's range of motion. In a palm strike your hand is folded back nearly to it's extreme ROM. Were that area to be hit, it would break the wrist far easier than what would happen in a punch.	”

I've never heard of that actually happening. I have seen plenty of instances of broken hands from punching with a fist.

“	6. Less safe for the fingers. The fingers are exposed and can be hit dead on, and broken just like the wrist, especially if not all of them are hit in the impact. In a punch the fingers are curled inwards to protect them, and cannot snap as easily going that way because the palm is there to stop them.	”

Ditto, I've never even heard of that happening (except in volleyball). Fingers breaking from closed fist punches is fairly common.

“	7. A wider and easier target to block. An open palm is taller than a closed fist, so any defense will be more likely to both notice and stop it simply because of this size.	”

Not likely, 16 oz gloves get through people's defenses just as easily as bare knuckle fists do.

“	I do however, love the way palm strikes look, and would like a way of knowing any ways they are more effective, and how to release this effectiveness. I love the way Neji and Hinata use them!	”

Less risk of injury, if you miss you can grab right away (although if you only clench your fist on the moment of impact that's possible with a normal fist as well), you can grab and start manipulating right after hitting, something you can't do with a fist, (ie 1-2 roundhouse combo to the head straight into a thai clinch and work knees), it's easier to parry when your hands are open than when they're closed. Anyway, the main advantage is that you don't break your hand when you're using palm strikes, something that's quite likely with a fist.

I honestly feel taken aback, and at a loss for words here. HOW? Okay. First off giving the closed fisted techinques their due, they have good penetrating power. Clean, hard, penetrating energy/force. With palm strikes the force seems to spider-web. It penetrates, and spreads. If you were to correctly punch a piece of sheet-rock, yoiu would have a fist-sized hole. If you were to palm strike it, there would be a hole from the initial penetration, and then a spider-web cracking effect surrounding that hole. It has a ¨softer¨ energy, not unlike the concept of beating someone down with a grapefruit in a pillow case. There is less noticible damage on the surface, but alot internally. Secondly, I have never met anyone who has broken their hand executing a palm strike; reguardless on whether it was against a live opponent or an inanimate object. I have met several who have broken the bones in their hand/wrist by punching incorrectly. Or, even by punching the wrong surface correctly. An interesting rule of thumb, my shaolin sifus told me was to hit softer tissue such as the solar-plexus with a hard strike, i.e. a punch; and harder bady areas such as the face with a softer strike, such as palm attack. The techniques are there for a reason, and some styles such as Bagua zhang focus almost exclusively on palm striking.

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“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Bagua has a palm strike which is at least 5 times more powerful than a punch.	”

It may be that your palm strike is more powerful then your punch but when it comes down to damage I'll take knuckles over palms any day.

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“	An interesting rule of thumb, my shaolin sifus told me was to hit softer tissue such as the solar-plexus with a hard strike, i.e. a punch; and harder bady areas such as the face with a softer strike, such as palm attack.	”

That's a good rule of thumb to follow.

The best way to test your theory, Tyciol, is to actually hit something. Another person, or a heavy bag. Use closed fist and then palm strikes. If your wrist breaks doing a palm strike write back and let us know.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Good thread the statements clearly show the levels of skill and how far there is to go.
I have heard beginners say this a few times... and thats ok but if they stick with the arts they will learn.

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“	Originally Posted By: Bon Chuan It may be that your palm strike is more powerful then your punch but when it comes down to damage I'll take knuckles over palms any day.	”

Surface damage vs. Internal damage. Hmmmm.............

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“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua Surface damage vs. Internal damage. Hmmmm.............	”

Well this is just a guess but I'm gonna go ahead and bet punches have killed/injured more people and ended more fights then "internal Damage"

again just a guess

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Soldiers Die Saints

Some fresh comments/observations:

1. While doing my iron palm exercises, my palm can take about as much of a beating as I want to give it. But when I turn my hand over and do the same exercises with my knuckles (in a fist), the area cant take near what my palm can. At *my* present level, my palm can deal MUCH more damage without getting hurt itself.

2. OBJECTIVE OBJECTIVE OBJECTIVE! Each technique has its own objective. Even if a fist did have more distance than a palm strike, it doesnt matter--one strike is good for some things, and another is good for others; palm strikes double well as block attacks, make very potent body hits (especially internal ones), double palm strikes are great for hyper-extending the neck via an upward thrust under the chin, or for breaking the nose via a strike to the filthrum, some of which REQUIRE close range. And really, if you wnat long range, then you have kicks. But the fact that a kick is a longer range attack than a punch doesnt make it better. Id prefer to be close in if Im fighting a guy with long arms. Its all about objective. A certain technique is only better than another for a specific situation.

3. Palm strikes can be followed quite easily with a grab. While the time scale is close to infinitesimal, on that scale it takes substantially longer time to open your fist and perform a grab than to just hit with a palm and grab.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

Getting hit with a palm to the nose, or a fist to the nose, it equally sucks, but the person is more likely to break the guys hand with a punch, using their special head to the fist technique, just like in jet li movies.

The palm of the hand makes contact with almost everything in your daily life, you don't pick up anything with your fist or the back of your hand. The skin is better prepared to deal with impact. I guess you could get callouses on your knuckles like master pan, but I dunno know about the chance of arthritis. Palm strikes seem perfectly viable to me.

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well, what everyone said pretty much sums it up. It maybe a lack of proper training. You also have to remember not everyone is the same.

Good posts. There are pros and cons to both.
What it all boils down to is what PlumDragon said...

“	2. OBJECTIVE OBJECTIVE OBJECTIVE! Each technique has its own objective.	”

The only statement here I have a problem with is this one...

“	Bagua has a palm strike which is at least 5 times more powerful than a punch.	”

The shape of the hand/fist has absolutely nothing at all to do with the generation of power.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara The only statement here I have a problem with is this one... The shape of the hand/fist has absolutely nothing at all to do with the generation of power. Peace- Cam	”

Agreed, I felt the same way at the time, and ended up talking to my instructor and his at the time. It had to do with two things; Qi movement, and the fact that a major meridian lies in the palm and so a greater resource of Qi can be let loose, where with the fist you do not have that. But that was only part of it, the rest was body mechanics and direction, so you got more power than a punch.

But on the other end of this, the Lo Han use a vertical fisted punch ( Lo Han Punch) which when used properly, has more striking power than a regular punch and is just as good as a palm strike.

So it all comes down to choice, preference, and how you use what you got.

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