Xing Yi Drilling Fist vs. Wing Chun Drilling

For a while Ive meant to begin wing chun under a friend of mine. Well I finally started and I was quite surprised to see that wing chun has a drilling fist. It looks alot different than the xing yi drilling fist, but utilizes the same concept of drilling power generation.

My question is this: Does wing chun take an internal philosophy (at any level) as it pertains to drilling, or any of its other punches for that matter? Is the drill in wing chun meant to be an internal strike, or does it just employ a similar mindset in terms of the twisting type motion inherent of drilling fist?

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

i think that every fighting art takes an internal philosophy whether they know it or not.

an internal strike is simply a strike that penetrates, due to proper technique acquired through practice.

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great ideas hold their roots in a simple thought.

THE CURRENT RUNS DEEP.

poo poo E too too...

I believethat Ving Tsun can incorperate any movement that any man (or woman can make). The trick is in VT's principles of efficiency and simplicity. To attempt to answer your question, I have personally only discovered "internal" energies through strenuous training of the forms, it was not something taught. The "drilling fist" that you saw is a way of movement, the rest is up to the student.

I think I may be able to shed a little light on this subject. To do so however, requires a bit of a history lesson, but an interesting one that many of you should find valuable. There is a much bigger picture that most dont see, or just dont know about. The biggest obstacle is the fundamental misunderstanding of the origins of Shaolin Kung Fu and the effects that it had on the world. As some of us know, "Weng Chun" was a Shaolin High Art, in fact it was the highest art in terms of combat use. Because it was a Shaolin system, it inherrently had internal aspects, just as much as any other art had then or has today, even though the popular belief today(reflected even here) is that Wing Chun is an "external art"(preposterous by the way). The fact of the matter is that all Shaolin monks had massive amounts of chi building in their everyday lives, be it for strength/power, defense(iron body), or health(marrow-washing etc.). Any "internal" chi-building of any kind that we know of was developed in the Shaolin temple. Who knows what was lost aside from that which we still have today. The point is that the actual fighting systems themselve's aren't what developed the chi, it was developed independantly and then incorporated into the fighting systems. It all formed a harmonious whole however. Conversely, many of the fighting systems do inherrently have some chi-building aspects, and things such as "drilling punch" reflect that. Meaning that that punch draws energy from your center(where chi is drawn from)and thereby makes the punch much more powerful than it would otherwise be without the proper technique. The technique is just half of it though, it is just the vessel, if you will, to unleashing the pre-built and harnessed chi that was already developed in their internal training. Now, to truly understand the bigger picture you must understand that any and all Shaolin-based systems we have left today(much was undoubtedly lost)are merely scattered remnants of the harmonious whole I spoke of earlier. For example, Tai-Chi is a portion of what's left of the chi-building forms from the Shaolin days. This does'nt mean that all Tai-Chi is the same. A man by the name of William DeThaurus(Uncle Bill)has what is probably one of the most complete knowledge bases of Tai-Chi anywhere in the world, he encompasses all the iron body excercises(phases 1 and 2, that I know of)and all the health forms(marrow washing, etc.)as well as the all important "balance" forms so that the negative gung doesnt get uncontrollable. We're not talking about your grandmothers in-the-park-hippie Tai-Chi, we're talking real, hardcore chi-building. This man is one of the reasons that I sought Wing Chun by the way. Anyway, many of the Shaolin arts(and their direct derivitives, such as Xing-Yi)still incorporate some level of chi-building in their systems. Wether it be deliberately doing chi-building forms, or a less direct link such as developing small amounts through performing the art itself(often times chi is built inadvertantly, and to varying degrees) Unfortunately, Wing Chun is not one of the arts that retained a deliberate "internal" aspect. Sure, there are trace elements of it, like I said earlier, in some of the forms as well as having inherent aspects simply through technique of movement. But this was one of the systems that lost it somewhere, maybe the red boats(?)or maybe earlier. Most likely the red boats. The reason for this in the case of Wing Chun is because it is so effective, even without the internal side, in addition to the fact that there is an awful lot of smaller systems within the overall sytem that must be mastered, i.e. there's a hell of alot to learn! There's alot more to Wing Chun than most people realize, including many practitioners themselves. Also, the red boats era was a busy time for the people involved(they had to practice their stage-play as well as their kung fu)That being said, you can see how it seems reasonable to have dropped the very involved and time consuming internal side in favor of mastering an art that frankly, could handle losing it. In addition, there were very few people during that time that did have internal use, so I'm sure that added to the reasoning. It's actually quite interesting the way the cookie crumbled, because it left Wing Chun with a hidden secret of sorts, in that if you were to add serious internal aspects to the actual fighting system, it would be much like having a key to unlocking a super weapon. I myself have little internal training, and envy those that do have high-level knowledge. I hope to one day be able to barter knowledge for knlowledge should I have the opportunity to come across someone again who has such training. Anyway, to sum it all up, the reason you see similar aspects and techniques in the Shaolin systems(and their direct derivitives)is because at one time, they were all part of the same school of knowledge: Shaolin.

Interesting post fenriswolf, thanks for the info. I dont get enough history lessons =)

So to clarify, you feel that wing chun, practiced internally, with concpets from the internal arts (for example. intent or the type of visualization used in some qi gong), is something that would enhance the abilities of a wing chun practicioner?

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

I am a student of Lai Tong Pai, an art that evolved from the same art that Wing Chun came from. The two arts have diverged over the years, but still hold some similarities. I know in my art, we practice both the internal and external philosophy. In fact my Sifu doesn't even like to think of it as 'internal or external', in his mind they are one.

Before I came to this school, I practiced Taiji, Baqua, and Hsing-I as well as some Long Fist. I can tell you that my abilities did not truely begin to develop until I began external training along side of my internal training. I like to think of it in this manner... External training is like a glass, internal training is like putting water in the glass. When the glass can take no more water, it spills over the edge and is lost. By increasing the amount of external training, the glass gets bigger and can hold more water.

That is why I went looking for an art that had balance.

I have issues with the above poster, firstly the blatant misguided statement that Bill dethours is the only high level Tai Chi Chuan exponent in the world is balony to the point of amazement.

There are so many high level Tai Chi CHUAN masters around that have a full and complete understanding of the systems as fighting arts, one only has to go and search.

The poster also goes on to say that Chi is the magic ingrediant to skill...wrong, it is a small element. Mechanics are the important thing in harmony with intent, breath and the 9 harmonies.

Wing Chun is nore more than 300 years old, one would have thouhgt that in 1,500 years of shaolin it would not take them 1,200years to have allready achievd the same so called level of ability as the poster alledges in wing chun.

Agreed what is seen in shaolin today is not what was there pre-cultural revolution.

Drilling punch is not a chi building exercise...good grief.

All systems of chinese martial arts are both internal and external by their very nature of being.

the posters quite freely admits his low level of understanding of internal work, it displays it in his post. I suggest for future ref visiting www.emptyflower.com and go to hsingyi page to learn more about internal styles and their abilities/capabilities, trainng methods skills etc.

Plum Dragon; Yes, I feel that internal training will enhance the abilities of all practitioners. However, I also feel that some would have more to gain than others.

Wonhunglho: *Sigh* This is a perfect example of why I dont like getting involved in forums...
Let me first say that, if anyone has a desire to learn, regardless of what it is, you need atleast marginal levels of comprehension. That being said, reading comprehension skills are a vital key to the quest of attaining knowledge. Won, your reading comprehension skills are as bad as any I've ever seen, possibly the worst. You were so far off of everything I said that I actually had to read back over my post to try and figure out how you could have possibly conjured up such misenterpretation. I dont see how it was possible, anybody else that might have insight into how he did this, please inform me. Won, I'm going to simplify this for you by listing your quotes seperately. Then, I'm going to rewrite(In a simplified and easy to understand form)what I originally said. Then I want you to go back and proofread everything and make sure you understood what I was saying, and then make note of how you got it so F'd up. So, here goes:

Wons' Interpretation: "I have issues with the above poster, firstly the blatant misguided statement that Bill dethours is the only high level Tai Chi Chuan exponent in the world is balony to the point of amazement. There are so many high level Tai Chi CHUAN masters around that have a full and complete understanding of the systems as fighting arts, one only has to go and search."
What I actually said: "A man by the name of William DeThaurus(Uncle Bill)has what is probably one of the most complete knowledge bases of Tai-Chi anywhere in the world, he encompasses all the iron body excercises(phases 1 and 2, that I know of)and all the health forms(marrow washing, etc.)as well as the all important "balance" forms so that the negative gung doesnt get uncontrollable. We're not talking about your grandmothers in-the-park-hippie Tai-Chi, we're talking real, hardcore chi-building. This man is one of the reasons that I sought Wing Chun by the way."
Summary: I never said he was the only one! I said he had one of the best knowledge bases. I'm well aware that there are other Tai-Chi Grandmasters who have great knowledge(and probably even greater than his), Uncle Bill just happens to be the only one I've ever had contact with, therefore I spoke of what I know. The only thing amazing and blatant is your inability to comprehend what you read.

Wons Interpretation: "The poster also goes on to say that Chi is the magic ingrediant to skill...wrong, it is a small element. Mechanics are the important thing in harmony with intent, breath and the 9 harmonies."
What I actually said: Oh yeah, I just remembered, I never said anything of the sort! The only statement I said that I can fathom he drew this conclusion from was: "It's actually quite interesting the way the cookie crumbled, because it left Wing Chun with a hidden secret of sorts, in that if you were to add serious internal aspects to the actual fighting system, it would be much like having a key to unlocking a super weapon."
Summary: The funny thing about this one is the way in which Won downplays the benefits of internal elements. What's funnier still, is Won is probably the same guy that would argue that the internal aspects of Xing-Yi(and other internal arts) is what makes it superior to the "external" styles. Won, I'm well aware that solid body mechanics is what allows one to apply his "intent", which is precisely why I train in Wing Chun.
Wons Interpretation: "Wing Chun is nore more than 300 years old, one would have thouhgt that in 1,500 years of shaolin it would not take them 1,200years to have allready achievd the same so called level of ability as the poster alledges in wing chun.
Reality: Won, you definately went and bit off more than you can chew on this one! First off, Wing Chun or "Weng Chun" as it was referred to in the Shaolin temple is no LESS than 300 years old. I know what you're basing this asessment on, and that is the traditional myth and legend version of the origins of Wing Chun, i.e; the story of Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mui. This is actually a totally seperate(and lengthy)post by itself. But, I will touch somewhat on it for the sake of arguement. This will undoubtedly upset many Wing Chun practitioners when I say that the traditional Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun story is just that; a story. But if you do the research, you'll see that it is in fact just a myth. There are many glarring holes in the legend, and now there is much evidence that proves it. Just one little tidbit: the fact that Wing Chun was originally called Weng Chun in the temple is possibly one of the biggest chinks in the legends armor. Reason being, if it already had the name Weng Chun, the main importance of Yim Wing Chun in the story is pretty well nullified. There is much much more to it, but like I said, it's well beyond the scope of this post. If you are interested, check out the Ving Tsun Museum Archive(not sure of the URL), alot of the evidence can be found there. Furthermore, your assessment and reasoning of the timeframe, aside from not making any sense, is a little short-sighted. But I'm quite glad you brought it up. In the 1,500 years of Shaolin lifestyle they undoubtedly(obvously would be a better choice of words) learned, developed and improved more and more as time went on. Wing Chun is the final product if you will of eons of evolving improvement of their combat system. This is a good example of what I meant when I said that there is more to Shaolin, a bigger picture, that most people dont realize. So, it is exactly the time they had that made Wing Chun what it is, again, I thank you for bringing this up.
Wons' Interpretation: "Drilling punch is not a chi building exercise...good grief."
Summary: This one you must read the essence of my entire post(and understand it)to know that I never said that Drilling punch is a chi-building excercise. Actually, I've never done "drilling punch", I only know that it is similar to the so called "Wing Chun punch" in that it uses a technique that helps to release energy in a more effective way. However, I will say that there is some level of Chi-building to these types of punches, and I'll use an example all of you can relate to. Bruce Lee(I use his name only because of the fact that everyone is familiar with him and one of his claims-to-fame, not because he was a great Wing Chun practitioner, because he wasnt)as everyone knows had a very impressive 1-inch-punch. This punch starts out as more like a 4-inch-punch(the distance is measured between an open hand, finger tips touching the target, then the hand is closed to a fist and you punch from that distance)but as you hone this skill it becomes powerful, so regardless of distance, provided you draw from the center, is very impressive. The reason being isnt just the technique itself, but the fact that you are inadvertantly building some chi. That is precisely the reason the punch becomes so impressive, if you werent releasing some chi(which for the record means energy)then the whole thing would be quite uneventful. Bruce Lee wasnt exactly a big guy, so that kind of power came from somewhere, wouldnt you agree?? This is just an example, so please, dont anyone misenterpret, or blow out of proportion what I said. I know how the Bruce Lee subject has a tendency to do that, every damn time.
Wons Interpretation: "Agreed what is seen in shaolin today is not what was there pre-cultural revolution." "All systems of chinese martial arts are both internal and external by their very nature of being."
Sumarry: Probably the only two points Won got right. However, in getting these two points right, he contradicts everything he blasted me with. If ya got these two points, mostly the second point, why the need to blast me??
Wons' Interpretation:
"the posters quite freely admits his low level of understanding of internal work, it displays it in his post. I suggest for future ref visiting www.emptyflower.com and go to hsingyi page to learn more about internal styles and their abilities/capabilities, trainng methods skills etc."
Summary:You are right about one thing, I do freely admit to not having a great knowledge base of deliberate Chi-Building forms and excercises(I know 3 Iron body forms)however I do know more than you realize about the logistics and nature of it! That being said, dont pretend as though there was something I said(other than admitting I wish I knew more)in my post that you somehow read into, because nothing I said is right wrong or indifferent. Besides, with your reading comp. skills it's obvious you cant read whats in the lines much less what's between them. Also, dont make the mistake that I know nothing of Xing-Yi and its capacity. I have the utmost respect for Xing-Yi and it's sister arts, in fact(oh boy, this is really gonna get your goat)alot of the direct fighting style approach and technique that is in Xing-Yi comes drectly from Wing Chun my friend. And just for the record, if I ever found a Xing-Yi master in my area, I would be delighted to learn the system. However, I would like to thank you for the link, I cant wait to read through it as I'm sure there is alot of valuable information!

Your response was mildly interesting,

I did understand exactly where your comming from, but thanks for trying to further re-inforce your points.

When your knowledge is a somewhat deeper than it is now, you will understand my reply to you.

Spend a little more time at emptyflower, then try me agin in a year or so.

Wing Chun combines hard and soft principles. The 1st section of siu lim tao is also a qigong exercise. It feels a little like chan si jing, in terms of drawing the chi with the hands. It's a very powerful section if done slowly and mindfully. It's the attention and relaxation that creates the conditions neccessary to combine the internal and external forms.

PS: let's not fight.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

Are you one of Genge LaoShir's students?

(Sorry, correction)
My sifu is trained in yip man lineage, though is not a representative of yip man.

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

ok cool thanks

I checked out his site though, looks like a really good school. I learn Wing Chun now, and it works for me because the forms don't need lots of space to practise, so I can practise more reliably and frequently. Are you in Bristol?

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...