Is Kung fu better or worse today?

No one can deny that the CMA practiced today must be very different than the CMA in 1000 A.D.

While martial arts are intended to develop and be refined, and its practitioners research and refine methods with traded ideas and continually improve their style – but have they?

The conflict today over Kung fu vs. Wushu is an important event. The movement towards sport-oriented practices - does that take away from the martial aspect? Are we seeing the degradation of Kung fu?

In modern day we have more resources, a better venue for exchange of information, better tools for learning than at any other point in history. Yet, has Kung fu really 'advanced' at all, or is all the really good stuff left behind in times when all you had to defend yourself were your fists? Was that supreiour? Why?

Of course I’m talking about all CMA, and perhaps even the whole martial world.
I wonder if this intelligent analysis of martial arts has really lead to its improvement. If holding with tradition has stunted, or help preserve, and if what we practice today is superiour although not as useful in the time of the common gun, or inferiour and lame in comparison to our forebears.

~Monkey Lifting Water

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“	Originally Posted By: Monkey Lifting Water I wonder if this intelligent analysis of martial arts has really lead to its improvement. If holding with tradition has stunted, or help preserve, and if what we practice today is superiour although not as useful in the time of the common gun, or inferiour and lame in comparison to our forebears. ~Monkey Lifting Water	”

First you have to decide how you would go about making such a comparative judgement. Or if you could.


Otherwise, you end up with "what if Mike Tyson fought John L. Sullivan?" pointlessness.

I think that would be a very difficult judgement call for most of the members on here. For no other reason than I doubt many of us are old enough to have had exposure to Kung Fu in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, to compare it to what is practiced now.

Mr. Adam Hsu writes a considerable amount on the topic in his book "The Sword Polisher's Record". While not wanting to divulge anything, as it is an exceptionally well written book and I recommend it to anyone looking to understand some of the underpinnings of Kung Fu, I would say he is concerned that Kung Fu risks devolving into a performance art unless more qualified teachers become available.

But you'll have to read the book, as his insight is truly interesting.

-hz

Unk is right, how the comparison is made depends on what base of perception/opinion one is working from.

The comparison between modern wushu and traditional kung fu is controversial, but more so when one considers that wushu is a purposeful redevelopment of traditional arts to remove the "violent" aspect. If one believes that violence is bad, in that respect wushu is "better" than kung fu. But if one believes that violence is unavoidable or necessary, then kung fu is "better."

A TCMA'ist will quickly point out that "the teeth have been taken out" of the forms in modern wushu. His viewpoint is that of TMA's as forms of controlled but necessary violence, and that to adulterate the key reason that MA's exist is a form of heresy. That's the main point of the controversy, and the question as to whether contemporary wushu is a martial art at all, or just rhythmic gymnastics with weapons.

That aside -- the state of martial arts IMO is like everything else in the universe. It waxes and wanes, ebbs and flows with the currents of history. Looking back a century at the Boxer Rebellion, one can only wonder what level of skill the triad members had in general, and what level of skill their best warriors had. (Many of those top warriors thought their iron body training would stop bullets -- it did, but not in the way they thought it would unfortunately.) After the rebellion, with the triads broken and many of the best martial artists dead or in prison, what was the state of martial arts then? Then, during/after WWII, what was the state of martial arts throughout Asia after decades of war & civil war? And the great exodus of skilled martial artists from China when Mao took over, so that most of the best traditional masters are found in other countries?

Add to that the easy life of the westerner today -- even though we have access to great traditional masters, good food, and solid scientific knowledge -- how much better are we than the greats of the past? Do we train nearly as hard as them?

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Well in some ways CMA is in better shape today (or has the potential to be better) than the past. In some ways it is not.

For example:
We now have access to modern training equipment and medical practice wihich allows one to train hard in less amount of time.

I am one for modern conveniences in my Kung Fu. Why stand in a MaBu for 10-30 minutes to build up your legs? I can go to the gym and get a full work out. Problem is that some Instructors feel like preserving antiquated training methods make their Kung Fu more traditional. Wrong! If a style does not progress it is no longer traditional. All the so called traditional styles came from addapting newer methods over time. But somewhere that got interupted.

Also too many "TCMA" schools have gone the way of TKD and other sport oriented arts. point sparring is the norm, if there is any sparring at all. Gone in most places are the days of actually sparring hard. TCMA for the most part has gone the way of catering to soccer moms who don't want little Johnnie to get a boo boo but expect him to get a "black belt" in 2 years since they paid money.

No I know not all schools are like this, and if you are a member of one great. I know when I teach people I push them until they want to give up and I use more modern methods. of course I dont charge anyone and its old school backyard traing but ...

Ok. Now there is a larger pool of people interested in Martial Arts in general and that is good. Having studied contemporary WuShu It has much to add and is good for bringing people into the arts. As long as the traditional arts are still taught and people understand the difference WuShu is good for CMA in general.

my 2 cents worth...comin' at ya! I will have to agree that modern advances in the areas of physical fitness, nutrition, and supplementation give today's martial artist an edge over the martial artists of old. Plus, from an application standpoint, the influence of other martial arts gives everyone the opportunity to adapt and evolve with what works best, and pitch out that which doesn't.

There may be some things lacking, though...the "customer service" factor that 5Fists eluded to with the little Johnny statement, that is SO true. People today want it now, and are willing to pay cash but not blood, sweat, and tears to get it. I think the practitioners of old practiced all day, like demons. Maybe for honor, maybe for respect, and maybe because that was the best way to prepare yourself for a fight, if we are talking about the days before modern weaponry. You may work a little harder on learning that form if you knew it may save your butt some cold dark night really soon..Also, everyone is afraid to be sued, it seems. For some in the world, suing is the first thing to think of if they feel they have been wronged in some way. the over abundance of point sparring and non-realistic sparring probably stems from that, a little. Any martial arts instructors on this forum can attest to the high cost of insurance that you must carry if you own a kwoon/dojo.

No way to make the comparison without pure theoretical speculation based on historical accounts that may or may not be all that accurate or factual. I think a problem in the martial arts field is that a good deal of history is replaced by stretched truths or outright fabricated myth to embellish the mystical nature of the sub-culture that is "THE MARTIAL ARTS"...

The great thing about modern times, as many have mentioned above, is that we now have medical and nutritional advancements and the training methods are more scientific. This coupled with the exchange rate of information should cause the evolution of martial arts to go full speed ahead.

Martial arts pretty much became stagnant over the past few hundred years (except for the origins of judo) until the advent of BJJ and then the proliferation of NHB/MMA which caused the jump starting of the evolution of martial arts once again. Thanks to these competitions and the new evolution we have a wealth of knowledge on which way to take our progressions in our own systems and styles, regardless of background.

Based on the resources available, it SHOULD be getting better, but that all depends on the individual's willingness to take advantage of the newer resources.

Peace-
Cam

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Cam
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It SHOULD be getting better but the problem is that a lot of TMA refuses to adapt because a lot of "Teachers" fear to admit that they don't know everything and are afraid of losing the respect of their students.

This is not just happening in TCMA but Japanese/Okinawan styles as well. that is why we still have the "Oh, we are too deadly to compete, our style is just to dangerous." arguments. If all these styles are so deadly, how sdid they have anyone left to pass them down?

Maybe it is time for these "traditional" styles to undergo a transformation.

5Fists, I could not agree with you more.
The problem that you speak of is just one of many that I have come into contact with when it comes to most TMA refusing to evolve and adapt.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

I couldn't really say if its better or worse its different as all things are.

The one thing I can say is true is that there are fewer hidden lessons today once something is given out it spreads around the world through the net and so the word gets out faster than ever. That one thing is a major factor the second major factor is the simple fact of change and effect the arts have based on just the number of people in the arts today.

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this is a question thats been asked before many times. at the time l started classes were two to three hours long . body conditioning was tough some threw up. l have no doubt that if you ran classes tis way to-day clubs would be very few. now l know this sounds like the old when l was a kid l walked 5 miles in knee deep snow to school story . but l could put you in touch with some who were there . to-morrow night in vancouver there a dinner one of the demonstraters is a freind of mine 4 years older than me ,hes 75 . l doubt that to many to-day will be around doing a lion dance or much at that age. he goes to a local park to practice dragon style every morning around 7 to about 9 . now most is like a dance class . now l am not saying that every body is like this just the majority. as teachers who were never taught to teach ,or are unquaulified teachers quaulity becomes poor. when we started back in the days (when dinsaures roamed the earth)there were no t.v.s, computers , and other computer types of entertainment we had to do something .but teachers had to prove them selves with more than ranks. we had to entertain ourselves ,some boxing as young as 5or 6 or playing a instrument, and so on. now poeple can sit back and be entertained without going anywhere. ask some of your grandfathers , now to many want things to be like mcdonalds . l have freinds teaching karate who admit its like being a high priced baby sitter. not everything modern is neccesarily a improvement. l think l speak for most of us who have been around a long time and watched what has changed.

“	Originally Posted By: aqira I couldn't really say if its better or worse its different as all things are.	”

well...
that kinda says it all doesn't it???

fact is most of us cannot and will not train like people did "in the old days"
and a lotta kung fu people need to realise that they won't get the skills the old masters had by going to a class twice a week for 1 hour

there's a lotta knowledge out there that's not being used in the McDonalds "I want that burger NOW!!!" kinda spirit that people have towards training
some training brings great results, but simply takes years
so people do it partially or not at all, and find other, faster ways to get to their goals

nothing wrong with that, it's how things are done in our time....

on the other hand, it's like Lugaldamhara said...
we all have access to a LOT more resources, medical and nutritional advancements and training methods that are more scientific

MA now isn't like MA 20 years ago and MA 20 years from now will be different again

that's just the way it goes

things change, go round in circles, expand, contract, go up and down, whatever....

basically, you get the MA that goes with the spirit of your time and you get as much out of your MA training as you put into it...

Chief108

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“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka

“	Originally Posted By: 5Fists I am one for modern conveniences in my Kung Fu.	”

Sure you are.

“	Why stand in a MaBu for 10-30 minutes to build up your legs?	”

Because it gives you a different quality of leg strength than doing some minutes on the stepper ? BTW, not everyone does that primitive standing. Many do that dynamically, with movements in such low stances, over long time.

“	I can go to the gym and get a full work out. Problem is that some Instructors feel like preserving antiquated training methods make their Kung Fu more traditional.	”

Then go to the gym and do your workout pumping iron or working isolated muscles, and then go meet someone who REALLY did that "outdated" traditional strength practice daily like it was done. Which is not only standing in Ma Bu for some minutes, but hammering away at walls, kicking car tyres in (today, back then you take trees), and doing hours of demanding low crouching, jumping and isometric work. And get your ass handed to you in seconds. And I don't mean a "maaaastaaaah", but just some serious practitioner (I know they're a dieing species).

Fact is that for example the strength level of a top BJJ practitioner comes from the impact the hours of ground work has on your whole body, not from "gym workout" on nice machines. Rickson additionally used exercises that have a lot in common with "old" simple boring non-air-conditioned practice, and totally outdated YOGA. The father-in-law of a friend who teaches CMA in Japan (and thus has lots of challenge fights all the time) has an incredible strength level at 55, just from Judo, not any "gym workout". Gym machines are fine to use with limited space, but they are no better than doing outdoor workouts with simple running, pulling along stuff, and the likes. I think you could guess my answer.

Most of the "kung-fu-teachers" of today are plain scams. Even lots of them in "old times" were, as it was a cheap way of making money. I get sick all the time when I see "reeeeal XYZ", and then they're bozos who send fighters in a ring to pretend they're "fighters" doing hilarious stuff I could beat up even at my present condition. But since there's only two of them in the weight class, they're "state champion" and "vice champion". I really would LOVE to live near lots of such pretenders, throw in the mouth piece and go at it with them after they come with stuff like "boah, traditional practice, how boring", or "I'm a master of XYZ, you do not even understand my superiority". And that includes people who write here, or some other message boards.

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"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
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BTW, show me you can do -this- with your practice. Just for 3 minutes. The surprise comes when trying to grapple such a person. No, I can't do this either, my menisci would flop out like a broken spring.

BTW, you can see the dreaded "applications", beyond crude form movements used in slapstick manner to claim fighting. Demo speed not to hurt the workshop partners, but you can see him go faster once. Original stuff contains headbutts, rams, tackles, throws, etc. Now compare this to your local "teacher", and his "students".

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	Originally Posted By: Nik BTW, show me you can do -this- with your practice. Just for 3 minutes.	”

>>insert wildly applauding smilie here<<

that's a great clip Nik!

to appreciate the skill you gotta have done stuff like that yourself before you can see the level of difficulty this form has
this is the kinda stuff that can only be acclompished from hard old fashioned training

I want that guys legs...

Chief108

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“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka