Judo or Jujitsu?

resisting oppnents or not is the method of teaching each school desides on. Dealing with just the art ( I can talk about it because I studied both) judo just does not go into the aspects that Ju Jitsu does but that is how it was intended to be. They are different systems with different intent.

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i get that unk

so as an example

one of the techniques not permitted in judo

opponents are shin to shin

one of them hooks their foot around their oppponents leg

applies pressure to the shin

and takes them down

simple and effective take down using the legs

deemed to dangerous for judo (could land on opponents knee)

but a basic JJ move

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut inf : "If you want to learn traditional Ju Jitsu, I would advise against this. Most forms of 'Ju Jitsu' taught today are bastardised versions of the original arts, and are trained inproperly!" please stop with the sweeping generalisations i have visited three (count them 1 2 3) very good JJ skools just in leeds alone one of which i trained at for a while as far as i am aware there are no kata in traditional JJ (i could be wrong) the kata are usually from another discipline tacked on judo can be seen as a subsection of JJ a more freindly way of teaching principles but really leaving out the juicy bits	”

This is so wrong it is untrue.

Judo was created from Kito Ryu Ju Jitsu, and Tenjin Shinjo Ryu Ju Jitsu. These are both Koryu arts, they are original ju jitsu, not the modern BS you get in most JJ schools. Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shinjo Ryu both contained kata. Koshiki No Kata is one of these.

Judo is not a 'subsection' of JJ, it is a completely redeveloped and modernized art. Saying that because Boxing does not contain all these 'lethal' moves that kung fu styles do, does not make it any more incomplete than the kung fu. Granted boxing was not made directly from a kf style, but the idea of punching remains the same.

As Unky says, judo doesn't contain those moves because the art attempts to give you moves that you KNOW you can apply against someone fully, skillfully resisting. With judo you get a DEFINITIVE answer, does this technique work or not. If you want to see, grab a partner and fight them. With the appearence of BJJ we can see other moves work good like knee and ankle locks!

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut i get that unk so as an example one of the techniques not permitted in judo opponents are shin to shin one of them hooks their foot around their oppponents leg applies pressure to the shin and takes them down simple and effective take down using the legs deemed to dangerous for judo (could land on opponents knee) but a basic JJ move	”

Kawatsu gake I think that's called. Means entwining hook or frog hook. I'll check it up later for you. It is contained in Judo, just not in the fighting side because it is dangerous.

Well, I'm gonna leave this to the ju jitsu folks to clear up.

Inferus, I'm not attacking judo or calling it inferior. It works very well in its own medium, and can be absorbed/adapted into or against other MA's if needed. However, bagging on another martial art simply because it's "not yours" is lame, especially when you have no experience in it.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut i get that unk so as an example one of the techniques not permitted in judo opponents are shin to shin one of them hooks their foot around their oppponents leg applies pressure to the shin and takes them down simple and effective take down using the legs deemed to dangerous for judo (could land on opponents knee) but a basic JJ move	”

I know just the move you speak of. How many times have you successfully used it in full-on JJ sparring/competition/fighting?

In any case, do I take it that you agree with my previous assessment?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Im sure Ju Jitsu has had its uses in the past, but im personally of the opinion Judo is a more refined way of throwing, locking and strangling and that thai boxing is a more refined way of striking.

Sure it's nice to see historical moves that 'might' of hurt, but I like to know that what i'm using definately does hurt.

I don't see a "this is better than that" as having any productive value in our discussion, I was just pointing out what I see as a basic difference in the approach to training (as born out by many of the comments for both JJ and Judo) that might inform the decision in question.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

I didnt really want this to be a which style is more effective discussion. I want to know the other pros and cons, e.g will one take longer to learn? is one more fun? is one harder work? etc

I think infernus has a way of saying things that can wind people up (whether he means to or not I dont know) but please, lets not just have the same old debates again!

I see what you are sayin unk, personally, my training so far has been deadly but can practice full force and im sure all of them are effective (how many times do you need to smack someone in the privates to know it will hurt?), but maybe some training from the 'other side' might be good for me. I think both schools of thought are perfectly valid. I'm not so bothered which one is more effective, just that whatever i do *is* effective.

I'm still finding it hard to decide, i guess I should just go and try some

unk : " I know just the move you speak of. How many times have you successfully used it in full-on JJ sparring/competition/fighting?"

its something i use quite a bit in sparring if the opportunity arises

unk : "In any case, do I take it that you agree with my previous assessment?"

yes

i'm not slamming judo

just trying to make you aware that judo is a 'safe' game

and that JJ is a much more agressive and comprehensive thing

i dont go for that 'it an antiquated traditionalists system' BS

that depends on who's skool you go to

djs : " I'm still finding it hard to decide, i guess I should just go and try some"

thats the best way

for me JJ is something i will go back to

and i highly recommend it

(as i am sure infy will highly recommend judo)

good luck and tell us which one you went for in the end

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut unk : " I know just the move you speak of. How many times have you successfully used it in full-on JJ sparring/competition/fighting?" its something i use quite a bit in sparring if the opportunity arises	”

So, in full-out sparring against an opponent attempting to throw, strike, whatever you?

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut unk : "In any case, do I take it that you agree with my previous assessment?" yes i'm not slamming judo just trying to make you aware that judo is a 'safe' game and that JJ is a much more agressive and comprehensive thing	”

Well, you don't have to worry about making me aware of anything. I've got no dog in this race, just pointing out a few things is all.

As for Judo being 'safe,' that's a relative term I guess. I'd bet a big wad of cash (if I had such a wad!) that far, far, far more people are injured in Judo training than JJ.

More aggressive? I don't think so. More comprehensive? I'd say yes, but that brings us back to the question of where is the line beyond which you start to trade practicality for comprehensiveness. I don't know.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

In either case what you want and what you get may not be the same thing, you go to class and do what the teacher thinks should be taught. If you go into a school looking for something in advance then you are not being as open as you should be. What you keep from what you learn is up to you.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

unk : "Well, you don't have to worry about making me aware of anything. I've got no dog in this race, just pointing out a few things is all."

sorry i didnt mean you unk i ment djs

unk : "As for Judo being 'safe,' that's a relative term I guess. I'd bet a big wad of cash (if I had such a wad!) that far, far, far more people are injured in Judo training than JJ."

maybe dont know for sure

just from my experience the JJ i did was pretty aggresive

suppose it depends on who you train with

as aqira pointed out

things change from skool to skool depending on who teaches what

just giving the benefit of my experience

not a definative answer

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: djstatika (I think playing rugby helped aswell	”

Rugby helps with everything in life!

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally Posted By: djstatika I didnt really want this to be a which style is more effective discussion. I want to know the other pros and cons, e.g will one take longer to learn? is one more fun? is one harder work? etc	”

sigh ... I can understand that. My last post was really a reflection on my own experience. I don't feel that one is "better" than the other - it's just a matter of finding what suits you.

This thread is a good example, there are practitioners from styles such as Wing Chun, Wrestling and Wah Lum, yet we recognise both JuJitsu and Judo as decent styles - yet we don't practise them. Why?

My response to that question is that I like the way that Wing Chun is taught, through simple forms that contain lots of information if you know how to unlock it. I also liked the way that Judo was taught and preferred it to the way the JuJitsu class I saw. (Bear in mind that the atmosphere of the class was also a big part of that "judgment").

My preference isn't empirical, it was just my personal feeling - yet IMO, that is really important if you are going to get anywhere in a system and more importantly in a school with the instructor. I went to 3 Wing Chun schools and thought it sucked until I met my present SiFu.

As always, it's a case of suck it and see.

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