A discussion related to San Soo Kung Fu.

Alright ladies and gents. I've been doing a bit of looking around.. and there is a school in my area that teaches this. The problem though, is not the teacher, but the teachers son. This 22 year old claims this and that about it, and from a conversation I had with him earlier I want to dispel this crap once and for all. The point? IS IT THE REAL DEAL? Is it genuine Kung Fu?

Here's some of the conversation made with this san soo master.

VillainousJester (7:01:04 PM): Does San soo incorporate any animal styles into it?
VillainousJester (7:01:09 PM): or is it just straight san soo?
SanSooGuy (7:01:41 PM): sansoo was incorporated into the animal styles as a metaphorical representation of intent and technique.
VillainousJester (7:02:21 PM): I don't follow.
SanSooGuy (7:02:22 PM): here
SanSooGuy (7:02:23 PM): enjoy
SanSooGuy (7:02:35 PM): want to share a note I received from Sifu Tom Akers (1st generation Master under the late Grandmaster Jimmy H. Woo a.k.a. Laosifu Chen Siu Dek) which shows how accurately and honorably we are working to properly pass our COMPLETE ART on - not just the narrow and naive perspective of 'fighting' only. It may be a bit cryptic for some and I'll be happy to answer any questions I can:


I have never done this before but I am going to recommend a movie, most, I know are not very good. This one with Jet Li playing Hou Yuanjia founder of the Jing Wu Men is different and much closer to history. Jet Li is worth the price of admission alone but as some know the Jing Wu Men or as some old timers will remember the Chin Woo or Mo Moon, which is Cantonese ( Jing Wu Men, Putonghua Mandarin.) This group and our Laoshifu and his Great Uncle Chin Siu Hung were closely connected. Laoshifu great uncle reputation was built on the Lei Tai bouts of the Jing Wu and Later our Chen Laoshifu carried the legend on. Chin Siu Hung ( Chen Zhao Xiong, Putonghua.) Killed several fighters in his bouts, it got so bad our Chen Laoshifu said that there was two years that Great Uncle would go on the Lei Tai salute and challenge everyone but nobody would come up. Laoshifu said everyone would have to make the trip to the gatherings and then leave with No Fights.
This is the third major movie about the Jing Wu Men and the closest one to what the Jing Wu is really about. The first two, Chinese connection with Bruce Lee and fist of legend with Jet Li was more about fighting and battles with the Japanese. You will notice that all three have leading characters who were a important part of the movies and history from the Chin, Chen families ( again different dialects, same family.) Now whether Hou Yuan Jia and Chin Losifu ( another Uncle.) really fought to the death like in this latest movie I am not sure but it is a famous legend, just like the fights with Russian and American boxers and strong men along with the Japanese fighters. Like so many things from history many like to argue but the best thing about this movie is it goes into the concepts of Wude or Martial ethics and character. In Fact the Jing Wu concepts was what Laoshifu had on his desk in El Monte Ca. ( The Art of Kung Fu lies not in victory or defeat but in the building of human character.) The term Jing means righteous, Wu means Martial and Men means group, the Chin Siu Dek Hing Dai Wui ( Chen Shoujue Xiong Di Hui.) with the help of Ha Yaofu our Zhongguo Laoshi have a Banner made in China which reads Zhongguo Jing Wu Men. ( Chinese Jing Wu Association.) This is part of our history and this group along with ALL of the Chen Jia Wushu Guans ( Chen Family Schools) including the Xiong Sheng Guan ( the schools of Laoshifu's great uncle called the Heroic Victory school of Taishan, Hong Kong and other areas.) All these schools were founded on the four pillars of Chinese Martial Arts, Zhong Xia Ren Yi ( Loyalty, Filial Piety, Benevolence and Compassion.) This is what we are supposed to pass on, this will really honor the Ancestors. Just like Hou Yuanjia many of us started off wrong and have had a past of violence, ego and fighting we all should try as he did, to change, to really honor the art and our great Chen Shoujue our Laoshifu so this art can do as he wished, " Spread the art throughout the world so it lives for a thousand generations to come."
Xiexie, Wode Jia, Sifu Akers, Tian Xia Yi Jia, Renren Ping An.

SanSooGuy (7:02:57 PM): san soo is the 'father time' in martial arts
SanSooGuy (7:03:04 PM): seiko omega and rolex are his kids
VillainousJester (7:04:01 PM): interesting...
VillainousJester (7:04:11 PM): So Woo was from Chen village?
SanSooGuy (7:04:15 PM): yup
SanSooGuy (7:04:35 PM): but yeah
SanSooGuy (7:04:36 PM): akers
SanSooGuy (7:04:42 PM): spends thousands a year traveling
VillainousJester (7:04:44 PM): So do ya'll teach Chen family style Taiji at the school?
SanSooGuy (7:04:44 PM): documenting
SanSooGuy (7:04:46 PM): interview
SanSooGuy (7:04:47 PM): ing*
SanSooGuy (7:04:48 PM): etc
SanSooGuy (7:04:51 PM): not @ our location
VillainousJester (7:05:08 PM): Any mantis incorporated into San soo?
VillainousJester (7:05:19 PM): Or is it strictly five animals?
SanSooGuy (7:05:21 PM): we're science, technique, and today's world reality based. as opposed to entirely traditional.
SanSooGuy (7:05:26 PM): sansoo is no animals
SanSooGuy (7:05:34 PM): sansoo is the language - and animal is a dialect
SanSooGuy (7:05:55 PM): its the parent art for all other styles
SanSooGuy (7:06:02 PM): predating everything
VillainousJester (7:06:04 PM): so its older than long fist?
SanSooGuy (7:06:10 PM): 27 centuries old.... Documented
VillainousJester (7:06:17 PM): No way... where can I see that?
(7:06:21 PM): um
VillainousJester (7:06:22 PM): thats very peculiar
(7:06:23 PM): everywhere?
VillainousJester (7:06:28 PM): Like example?
SanSooGuy (7:06:42 PM): all research and examples in books and such have that documented
SanSooGuy (7:06:48 PM): including the dating
SanSooGuy (7:06:53 PM): done by scientists
SanSooGuy (7:07:00 PM): on the texts brought with jimmy woo to the us
VillainousJester (7:07:02 PM): damn... I'm doing a bit of self study and research and I'm looking up as much as I go.
SanSooGuy (7:07:09 PM): but hey, i have to catch a few guys up the hall
VillainousJester (7:07:12 PM): Anything I can order or check out?
SanSooGuy (7:07:53 PM): Sifu ******** [email address withheld] - let him know what you are doing, what your intent is etc and he'll getcha the info and list you need
VillainousJester (7:08:04 PM): much obliged.







I've already sent off an e-mail that was given requesting a copy or any literature related to these '27 century old documents'. Which if memory serves me right, anything 27 centuries old is some damn expensive toilet paper.

Ha, great conversation you had there!

Something along these lines came up in another thread, as for myself I don't know about san soo, seesm to me to be the modern day version of the ultimate unbeatable martial art with no actuall proof or fact to back it up, sure it may have merit as many styles do, but as with all it depends first upon school/instructor and then on student...

I'd be questionable about the sifu's son though...

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Don't get me wrong.. I'm giving this the benefit of the doubt (as much as I don't want to) but I'm throwing e-mails back and forth with the sons father who runs a school in my area requesting information for some personal research I'm doing. I want to get to the bottom of this and figure out if this crap is just Kenpo with a shiny badge on it.

This school.. doesn't spar. Wears karate uniforms and karate belts... And to think once I almost ended up attending that place. Thank god for Sifu Steven Cottrell.

“	Originally Posted By: TheDarkJester Don't get me wrong.. I'm giving this the benefit of the doubt (as much as I don't want to) but I'm throwing e-mails back and forth with the sons father who runs a school in my area requesting information for some personal research I'm doing. I want to get to the bottom of this and figure out if this crap is just Kenpo with a shiny badge on it. This school.. doesn't spar. Wears karate uniforms and karate belts... And to think once I almost ended up attending that place. Thank god for Sifu Steven Cottrell.	”

Aye, I understand where you're coming from, but I've never ever heard of san soo untill recently, nor have the seniors of my system and they have an extensive background in MA's.

IMO, san soo is a joke, but I could be mistaken...

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Is there any coincidence between you naming yourself "Jester" and writing some weird, mixed up melange of unrelated sentences about history, Jet Li, hords of dead martial artists killed at "leiteis" noone ever heard of, San Soo and the universe ?

BTW, only a very deranged individual would use his superiority to kill people in tournaments regularily.

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

No no.. Jester is just what I go by. And honest to god this is the conversation I had with this kid.. he's the 2nd highest ranked at his school under his dad.. I'm working on getting some information from his dad right now, who I suspect is a bit more reasonable.

Me and his son used to be good friends, that is.. until I realized a wide majority of the things he said were lies and his actions questionable, if not downright unethical.

No no, it was the "SanSooGuy" in the chat who had all those nonsensical sentences.

1. "Fearless" the movie is a largely fictionalized account of Hou Yuanjia. He was indeed a respected fighter and one of the organizers of Chin Woo, and died after a challenge match with a Japanese master, but everything else is embellished or added purely for dramatic effect. "Chinese Connection/Fist of Fury" never happened in real life. Again, fiction.

2. "Chen" is a common name just like "Smith" is a common name in the U.S. Meaning, the Chens of Chen Village have no relation to whatever "Chen" SanSooGuy is trying to connect them to.

3. "San Soo" is not the same thing as "San Shou" (see other thread Mei Hua linked), it sounds like SanSooGuy is confused about this.

4. 27 centuries, huh? Let's think deeply about this one. Globally, documentation of human culture goes back to about 300 BC, before that it is purely oral history with only a few exceptions such as the Egyptian culture. Scratchings on a rock wall in deepest China do not really count as documentation for a martial art lineage. So almost all written documentation in existence only goes back about 23 centuries.

5. 27 centuries, huh? (continued) Most "lay" systems were founded within the last 200 years. Traditional lineages will name their system's founder and then behind that founder is usually Shaolin. Which was founded in, I believe, around 600 AD. The current generation of Shaolin is 34 (maybe 35/36). Also, just because your system's founder may have been a member of Shaolin at one time, does not mean the current head of the system may claim to be a generational descendant. You have to go take vows and become a member of the current generation.

6. It's Chin Woo or JingWu. There is no "Mo" in "Chin Woo." "Moon/Men" means literally "Gate" which has a contextual meaning.

7. Karate Gi's & colored belts. "Reality" techniques. Science based.

8. If you're going to claim you are a member of Chinwoo you should easily be able to prove that you belong to the association. It's very simple and can be crosschecked in the world directory at http://www.chinwoo.com . I only found one U.S. member, in Dallas TX. No karate gi's in sight so I'm pretty sure SanSooGuy doesn't go there.

Feel free to send this on to SanSooGuy to help him in his research.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

LOL
Props to SG!

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Jester is doing the research not SanSooGuy!

Gi is mentioned in one of my threads as well. My Sifu calls it that, for whatever reason noone has ever really called it what it should be called which I believe is zhifu, maybe?

When in fact we wear -

That is without the white cuffs, those are only for instructors.

And we wear sashes I guess would be a better term than belt.

So I guess what I am saying is, is the school wearing more of a karate type uniform and belt? Or more of something like what I showed?

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Gi = karate uniform. Colored belt usually included.

Sash is a different kind of cloth from a karate belt. Traditionally they are not used for ranking, but that is changing.

I don't know what the term is for the traditional Chinese outfit. The Chinese used to call it "clothes." We wear 'em because they look cool. And to keep the tradition. Or keep it real, yo.

You're right, Jester's doing the research (I was a little confused by SanSooGuy's essay).

Shaolin-Do and I think USSD wear karate gi's as well. Shaolin-Do people say it's because when the system was taught in Indonesia & later the States, that was the only workout uniform commonly available. One of these days I wish a school would just stand up and say, "We just like karate gi's better because we think they look cool! Nerds!!"

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Hey Darkjester,

Check out some of these websites:

http://www.sansoojournal.com
http://www.easthillskungfu.com/history.htm
http://www.usersuswest.net/~tompaz/AZsansoo.htm


Im not quite sure of the validity of their claims. But two things that im sceptacle about is that almost all websites that you can find only have the name Jimmy Wu as their Grandmaster. (this would generally only happen if this is a family system, which is possible but the websites say it was created in the Shaolin temple. So more than one master should know) the other is most of the websites had different dates on when the system was created.




take care,
zach

Great info Chang

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

SanSooGuy's rhetoric sounds like some self important and self promotional manure to me.
But that's just my opinion.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Ditto

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

SanSoo? LOL.......

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