Goals, methods, end results

for me forms are empty without there application

i was talking to a tai chi practisher a while ago who only trained froms

and i was harping on about how i felt that just doing forms was weird to me

and that my skill only really increase after training with a partner

and that the forms only became meaningful to me when i actually used them in a situation

after a while i let her get a word in edge ways

she had had a pretty bad car acident that had mashed her back up

and after all sorts of treatment and drugs and healers

the best thing she had found was doing tai chi forms

she had a pasing interest in the martial aspect

but no intention of training it

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	she had a pasing interest in the martial aspect but no intention of training it	”

But she was aware what her goal was and how her method was associated with that goal...

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

A martial ART can be an outdated or limited art form just like any other art. Otherwise it's science, and all the shouters should quit calling their pitfighting a martial art because they aren't using guns, explosives and satellite-guided warfare.

A martial art is anything that remotely has to do with artfully doing stuff that some day had to do with martial doing. TKD is a martial art although it's not that practical perhaps in a NHB environment. But NHB is extremely impractical when the other person at least brings a combat rifle, which is the lowest standard of todays warfare i.e. MARTIAL context. You can either have it one way or the other, not exclude everything from being a martial art that has no full-contact anything-goes competition, but then claiming the latter is a martial art though it has VERY little to do with todays MARTIAL doing.

BUT ...

The original question was about forms. Forms are a means of training the body, and to a part body-mind connection, like a guy who does turn-around jumpshots from behind a paperwall trains his body as well as his hand-eye coordination. They are martial art even without being "necessary" for martial skills. Of course, there was a shift from being a tool to develop, and keep skills necessary in martial H2H confrontations, to being an artform on it's own, with little additional practice for the former H2H goal. That happened about in the second half of 20th century, when people with CMA schools have seen Karate tournaments with Kata sections, and wanted to compete, while not having that many students who really WANTED full-out practice for H2H fighting.

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"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
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cam : " But she was aware what her goal was and how her method was associated with that goal..."

yeah

made me think a bit more about people's motivations for doing just forms

still find it wierd that people compete in forms competitions tho'

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

Some good posts. I think

“	intent has always been one of the key words and is at the core of all martial arts including aquiring ability or delivery of an outcome. There is a smaller but still very important word that follows it around and that is effort.	”

Sould be down in the focussing quotes thread. I think if you add the longer word 'intelligent' before effort then the discussion is resolved.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	still find it wierd that people compete in forms competitions tho'	”

Yeah, me too...
But there is really nothing wrong with that as long as that is the goal of the practitioner. If competitng in forms comps is what they want to do then more power to them.
Forms competitions are fine as long as the paticipants do not confuse what they are doing with applicable combat skills.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Forms are only part of martial arts training. Most people who train them also train the applications from them. Maybe you missed this from another thread. The following are applications from a form

Some interesting real life stuff:

One of my students is a Marine Recon Operative and recently while they were in training working on weapons disarming and retention techniques. Using the step back pull and cut technique from the turn around leading to the second strand (Steal the peach from under the leaf, Cat stance, down chop block.) he was able to either retain his weapon or wrench a weapon away from an opponent every time using that stance change combined with the cutting hand technique. The instructor was needless to say impressed while the other trainees complained he was "Doing something funny with his stance."

One of my long time female students was visiting Barcelona in Spain last summer. While sightseeing she came upon a group of young men grabbing various women's behinds, laughing and giving high fives to one another so she put herself on guard. She was momentarily distracted by some curio in a nearby shop forgetting senior
a s s grabbers and one of the fellows crept up behind her. Feeling his presence before she was accosted she turned just in time to block the groping hand. Unconsciously she happened to use the same technique described above cutting into the man's wrist with her full body weight. He was transported to a nearby hospital with a broken wrist....

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“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara I tend to disagree. "Martial" can only be demonstrated through application. One can have all the intent they want but if they aren't applying the intent "martially" then it is simply theoretical philosophical musings. Again, to use the analogy I used in the previous thread... If a guy lies on his kitchen table and performs the breast stroke, the butterfly stroke, the side stroke, etc... but never gets in the water, is it aquatic? No, because there is no water involved. Of course, the attributes he is gaining from this can be applied attributably, and to a lesser degree, technically when and IF he ever decides to get in the water. But until he gets in the water it isn't aquatic at all. Basically, his friends don't all gather around and watch him flailing about on his kitchen table and proclaim, "WOW! He is a great swimmer with great aquatic skills". The same is true with people gathering around a forms tournament and watching people dance and proclaiming, "WOW!! He is a great fighter with great martial skills". Well...... I know that does happen but that is the great misconception that is the point of the thread. Only in the field of martial arts do people do something entirely removed form the end goal and are declared competent in the end goal.	”

I agree.... because of the definition of the word. I took Unk's question, someone performing a weapons form... while the form itself may not be martial in context, it still comes from the art. So maybe we can consider it to be a martial dance.... which also translates into the word form. Does it transfer into applicable skills is the question..... which I honestly can't answer. If it's a weapons form, I don't want to be the one to find out it is applicable....

I do get what you're saying, which by the way..... is a funny analogy bro.

“	I disagree. It will translate. The methods for European fencing are entirely different from Japanese swordsmanship. Yet they are both applicable with intention and potential and both have been proven effective. Although they are both different they are still both viable methods of developing sword skills. BUT.... Then we have to take into account the training against a live partner. Is the partner empty handed? Is the partner also armed with a bat (sword)?	”

Agreed, if it's methods we're talking about. Methods can transfer over into a lot of things we do.... I should've used the word technique instead.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Sammy-girl... post #20. Kudos. This was my point with the forms vs. aliveness. When people train forms with the intent of regurgitating the form then they lose sight of the art and the application. The focus shifts to be upon the form competition and the fact that there is a form competition contributes to removing that focus even more-so. The problem lies when these people think that what they are doing is leading to the goal of being a fighter or at the least developing some competent applicable skill in a self defense situation.	”

Hey ... are we supposed to agree on stuff? Won't that knock a hole in the fabric of the universe or something?

This thread has gotten me thinking about how I've been formulating goals and the end results, and making some changes in training to line up my aims better -- so I'd say it's been a productive thread so far...

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Productive is the goal for this thread.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

SammyGirl started hitting on the important issue but no one has stated a real goal.

Goal is not to fight. Fighting to to demostate and test one's skills. No one exist to fight! - no one wakes up in the morning and says I have to fight - that is my goal in life.

What is your ultimate goal? How does MA fit in, how does it achieve your goal.



Is an olympic person's goal
1. the training
2. beating their record
3. beating the record
4. winning a medal
5. winning the gold
6. winning some pride for their country
7. what is their final ultimate goal.

Ask that question first. Everything else is an illusion. CHasing after the wind.

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May the force be with y'all.

My goal is to never have to fight. My other goal is to be able to defend myself if I have to, enough to get to safety or help someone else get away safely. I have other goals, to stay healthy, gain flexibility, better breathing and balance, improve my body structure, etc. Martial arts helps but is not the only means to those goals.

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“	Originally Posted By: Allan_Tsang SammyGirl started hitting on the important issue but no one has stated a real goal. Goal is not to fight. Fighting to to demostate and test one's skills. No one exist to fight! - no one wakes up in the morning and says I have to fight - that is my goal in life. What is your ultimate goal? How does MA fit in, how does it achieve your goal. Is an olympic person's goal 1. the training 2. beating their record 3. beating the record 4. winning a medal 5. winning the gold 6. winning some pride for their country 7. what is their final ultimate goal. Ask that question first. Everything else is an illusion. Chasing after the wind.	”

I agree, in the end.... it's all about the individual goal, whether it be personal, sport, country, etc.

At this point and time, my goal is to simply continue training. Any personal desires related to MA will come in time, through training. My long term goal is to be able to assist my teacher with passing our art down. Fighting was a goal once upon a time, then age kicked in.... a little.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

who cares what people believe about themselves? if someone wants to do forms and believes this puts them on par or better with pro fighters...good for them. If it makes them happy, more power to them. People delude themselves all the time in life in order to keep going...sometimes it is hard not to. I've tried (succeeded and failed) to force myself through my will to find truth (however you want to define it) in life... which is not always pleasant.The problem i have are teachers that propagate this idea and basically steal money from the people they are teaching. Perhaps they believe the same thing, but it is difficult for me to believe someone could keep that mindset if they've been in MA for a period long enough to be teaching people. I went to one those schools years ago and I know that deep down the instructor knew it, but kept everyone under that impression anyway (forms only teaching you fighting). IMO the mindset that was trained was dangerous in many ways, but most specifically in that he instilled a perception in his students that they would be able to use this stuff in REAL situations...barroom altercations, whatever. This unrealistic mindset coupled with the non-existant training, to me, is almost criminal to teach people (although leaning toward libertarianism i say 'buyer beware' including myself) . Someone is going to get hurt really badly. If i had known more at the time I would have not wasted my time...but live and learn.

I don't train for bar room fight because quite frankly - I don't go to bars - well unless my friends want me to - in which case we end up pretending to talk but really checking out for chicks. Fights? - unless we end up chatting up someone's girlfriend - but now that is never going to happen.

I had a student that always end up in jail for beating people up - he was always paranoid someone in 7-eleven (not sure why) would want to beat him up. So oh well.

Since I've studied MA, only altercations (real life) is in the cities and people asking me for my money. I have ways to deal with that. I don't take my family to places that is questionable. Just plain planning and forsight.


As for taichi mantis:

“	I have other goals, to stay healthy, gain flexibility, better breathing and balance, improve my body structure, etc. Martial arts helps but is not the only means to those goals	”

Again chicks are close to the real purpose - not sure why. Guys only see what is before us - our peepee I guess.

Unless we exist to fight - our purpose - EVERYONE (I'm giving it away) is to improve our lives. PERIOD.

No one want to fight so their lives is miserable. It may serve to boost theri ego - sleep with groupies, get famous - but the purpose is to improve their lives.

That said TCM said there are other wasy to achieve that goal - ABSOLUTELY. Just that fo me MA is the way I choose so if you keep that in mind, any direction MA takes me against that purpose is not something I would do.

All those...
1. I want to stay alive in an altercation
2. Defend myself in a street fight
3. Live longer
4. Live healthier
5. Make a lot of money in pro fight - hehe
6. Be the best fighter
has to be run through those filters. Those are not goals. it's like sayig the goal of a race horse is to win a race - no - it's more like sell sperm makes lots of money for the owners. The race is a step towards that goal.

You guys need to look further.

Enjoy life - it's quite short. A year just passed like THAT. Count to 100 and it's light out, my friend. So to spend it thinking of the fight around the corner and preparing for the life ending altercation is going to waste your time.


So train hard, enjoy life and make some friends and stay healthy.


So if train "realistically" to fight "realistically is your end all-be-all in life - please rethink that. It's a stepping stone - stay there for too long and you can draw you own freakin conclusion.

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May the force be with y'all.