Goals, methods, end results

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara It's about the pitfall of losing the sight of your goal. There is nothing wrong at all with doing forms. They can be an important and integral part of MA training. The problem is when people are led to believe or simply lose sight and start to think that the form is the goal instead of simply a means to the end, the real goal. Too many people tend to fool themselves into thinking they are learning and developing applicable fighting skill while simply focusing on learning forms. That is incorrect because the goal does not comply with the method. Of course forms training can be an integral part of that method but alone it will not be. If one has the specific goal of learning forms and nothing else, then that method fits the goal. I started the thread hoping to get some discussion on how/when these forms competitions started... Why they started... What styles perpetuate that paradigm... How have they shifted the goal of MA training from applicability to aesthetics? Peace- Cam	”

This is a quote from Cams last thread. That thread has since been closed, as things got a little personal. I have only copied the last portion of Cams last reply.... in this post we can find room for DISCUSSION, in a civil manner.

I have placed this thread in this forum, instead of the Battlefront. We won't need that, if we can have a DISCUSSION, rather than a ego fest. So let's see how this goes..... if not, another one bites the dust.


Aloha

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

It begs the question: If someone wants to learn forms and old weapons that aren't really practical these days and culture, language, whatnot and is openly and unapologetically not really interested in sparring, fighting, competition, 'applications' and whatnot (all of which is perfectly legitimate), is it still a martial art?

I'm not implying an answer one way or another, just putting it out there for discussion.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

your whatnots are to vauge

But to redo the question if you limit aspects of the martial art is it still martial...yes even a text that applies martial concepts is still a martial art


There is another side of this coin, someone who has developed but now has an interest in passing that to others. Thier goal may be in the outcome of others and that can be wide or narrow either way still ligit.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

“	Originally Posted By: aqira your whatnots are too vauge.	”

Sheesh! I listed four of them!

“	Originally Posted By: aqira But to redo the question if you limit aspects of the martial art is it still martial...yes even a text that applies martial concepts is still a martial art.	”

What do you mean? Is reading a book about martial arts a martial art?

“	Originally Posted By: aqira There is another side of this coin, someone who has developed but now has an interest in passing that to others. Thier goal may be in the outcome of others and that can be wide or narrow either way still ligit.	”

But passing what to others?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare It begs the question: If someone wants to learn forms and old weapons that aren't really practical these days and culture, language, whatnot and is openly and unapologetically not really interested in sparring, fighting, competition, 'applications' and whatnot (all of which is perfectly legitimate), is it still a martial art?	”

I would say it depends on what the individual expects out of their training. If training with weapons that aren't useful today is their thing.... then that's cool. Like stated before, as long as they see it they 'see' it for what it's worth, and not twist their image. Would it be martial still.... yes.

“	Originally Posted By: aqira There is another side of this coin, someone who has developed but now has an interest in passing that to others. Thier goal may be in the outcome of others and that can be wide or narrow either way still ligit.	”

I can understand this.... as someone would want to pass down their art/knowledge. What and how they pass it down is a different story.... but it would still be the goal of the person doing the passing.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman I would say it depends on what the individual expects out of their training. If training with weapons that aren't useful today is their thing.... then that's cool. Like stated before, as long as they see it they 'see' it for what it's worth, and not twist their image. Would it be martial still.... yes..	”

So, is it defined by intention or by potential?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

That's a good question. I'd say it still boills down to the individual as far as intention is concerned. Actually.... the goal would be where the source is....meaning that if the person intentions are to learn say.... a weapons form, and they're happy with the results/goal, then it can be defined.

Potential is a bit hard to describe, at least for me. How are you referencing potential?

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Well, if someone is taking batting practice, is that a martial art?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

I wouldn't call it a martial art, but there would be potential from the movements used in batting practice to transfer over to a martial art.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman I wouldn't call it a martial art, but there would be potential from the movements used in batting practice to transfer over to a martial art.	”

Ok, but what if the guy was taking swings in the yard thinking about how he could crush someone's skull with the bat? Now you have intention.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Ah... I see where you're going now. With that example, I'd say that there is potential for intention. Whether it's applicable or not is a different story.

Persons goal might be to crush someones head with that bat, but he might be using the wrong methods to reach said goal.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman Persons goal might be to crush someones head with that bat, but he might be using the wrong methods to reach said goal.	”

How so?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Not sure really.... but it's possible. I will say that if this person is out there swinging bats, 'taking' peoples head off and the like.... this will not transfer over to sword skills. The methods used are different for both.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

intent has always been one of the key words and is at the core of all martial arts including aquiring ability or delivery of an outcome. There is a smaller but still very important word that follows it around and that is effort.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

I would like to make a comparison that has been proven to work.. In WWI we had major problems with our soldiers not wanting to engage their targets, and as fear took over many of them would never even fire their weapons. We implemented using silhouette targets in their training and this conditioned these riflemen to fire as more of an instinct, not allowing fear to be as much of a factor.

Can we compare martial training to this example? I would say yes. You can't always have live targets to fire every technique at full force. MANY martial arts have targets they work on. Wooden dummy, bags, pads, shields, etc..

Intent comes with the training, no matter the variation of the training itself, that is if the person training intends to do something more with the training than get in good shape. ie Tae Bo.. Sure some of it can translate into self defense, but thats not the full intent of those training it.

So yes, I agree that if you're training to swing a bat in that way, then it will have some martial application.

I have to end with a question. When the USMC trains it's infantrymen with their M-16, do they have to be field tested for one to assume that they can kill using these practiced techniques? IMO, not every man on this earth has to prove their skill in a ring to have the skill necessary to win.