Evolution of the fighter and fighting styles

The only proof Cam will accept is if you've won an MMA competition. Also, in many eastern countries it is traditional that once you become a black belt/sash/senior in your style, you are encouraged and expected to move on and study other styles. It's only in the west that this was not as common or encouraged.

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“	Originally Posted By: jawsman Tom Cruise.	”

I don't know whats more frightening to me? The name Tom Cruise or the fact that it brought me some form of comfort after reading the turn that this post has taken?

“	Originally Posted By: TaichiMantis The only proof Cam will accept is if you've won an MMA competition. Also, in many eastern countries it is traditional that once you become a black belt/sash/senior in your style, you are encouraged and expected to move on and study other styles. It's only in the west that this was not as common or encouraged.	”

A) Let's not make this about individual posters


B) Could you elaborate on that last claim?

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: TaichiMantis The only proof Cam will accept is if you've won an MMA competition. Also, in many eastern countries it is traditional that once you become a black belt/sash/senior in your style, you are encouraged and expected to move on and study other styles. It's only in the west that this was not as common or encouraged.	”

This is something that I have heard of but could never confirm. Why was this not practiced in the west?

Well arent the most 'effective' styles the ones that have had creation in recent years?

MMA, Wing Chun, Boxing, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Greco Roman Wrestling, Olympic Wrestling, Kyokushin Karate, Shotokan Karate,etc.

Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a complete list and that no other styles may be included, but it is just my idea of effective arts and the most noticable thing is they are all from quite a recent time in history as opposed to from the Shaolin Temple of many centuries ago? There are obviously some exceptions to the rule however.

I think that declaring all TMA as 1 dimensional styles and stagnant is a bit unfair. Remember most of MMA comes from 1 dimension styles (Judo, boxing, BJJ, muay thai) but combined.

I think the idea of MMA has been incorporated in to TMA for a long time however. You often hear about how your Master in X style knows a form or two from Y style. Is this mixing martial arts or not? I would say it is.

Whilst I do not think TMAs are as effective in modern combat as they used to be, i still don't think they should be discounted completely. The problem I think with most TMA's is the application is unknown. Most teachers don't have a real good grasp on how to apply it in a real situation, relying on either what someone else has told them or making it up based on false principles normally created from compliant training. Some TMA styles need a rethink on their applications. FF's teacher/students are doing this by trying to incorporate WC into many more positions and situations I think?

“	Originally Posted By: Inferus Well arent the most 'effective' styles the ones that have had creation in recent years? MMA, Wing Chun, Boxing, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Greco Roman Wrestling, Olympic Wrestling, Kyokushin Karate, Shotokan Karate,etc. Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a complete list and that no other styles may be included, but it is just my idea of effective arts and the most noticable thing is they are all from quite a recent time in history	”

I'm not sure that most of the things on your list could be classified as "recent"

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

My teacher's teacher was trained by his grandfather initially in tai chi, shaolin, and family stuff, then sent of to train various styles with other teachers. He went on to insist any of his students planning to teach learn at least two styles to a suitable level...

On xen xen learned white crane before training tai chi.

The examples of traditionally cross training are endless. IMO the difference is the time spent in one style before learning another.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

You may want to read this thread. Here is an excerpt...

"People have been cross training TCMA forever. Find any teacher above 50-60 from China, and you'll see he did a dozen styles. The taboo of cross training is a recent tradition inherent to the small minds of weak skilled teachers who feared their students learning from someone who was 'better' than they were. They worried about losing their students and their income, so they tried to make people loyal to one style."

One of my kung fu uncles has trained in many styles...

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“	Originally Posted By: Sthrn Lipan I don't know whats more frightening to me? The name Tom Cruise or the fact that it brought me some form of comfort after reading the turn that this post has taken?	”

Glad I could be of service.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	The taboo of cross training is a recent tradition inherent to the small minds of weak skilled teachers who feared their students learning from someone who was 'better' than they were	”

I always thought it was just that, traditionally, you went, you lived with one guy, and you trained with him full time. Then, when you'd learned what he had to teach, you moved on. Most of us just don't get to the "learned what he had to teach" stage.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Originally Posted By: john100 The examples of traditionally cross training are endless. IMO the difference is the time spent in one style before learning another.	”

I think that when we speak of cross training, the emphasis should be on taking principles from each of the 4 core ranges/techniques: striking, kicking, throwing and grappling/wrestling.

Admittedly the differences between Tai Chi and Muay Thai are enormous, but essentially they are covering a similair area of skill aren't they?

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Cling to nothing, except your Lego...

“	Originally Posted By: TaichiMantis You may want to read this thread. Here is an excerpt... "People have been cross training TCMA forever. Find any teacher above 50-60 from China, and you'll see he did a dozen styles. The taboo of cross training is a recent tradition inherent to the small minds of weak skilled teachers who feared their students learning from someone who was 'better' than they were. They worried about losing their students and their income, so they tried to make people loyal to one style." One of my kung fu uncles has trained in many styles...	”

Great point... I have been associated with a Korean Kung Fu for several years now and am very aware of the fact that when they find out that I am still closely working with a WC hybrid system that I will be kindly or not so kindly asked to leave the organization. Way off subject but I feel that it fits into your point.

Cam, without getting personal, this is the part that I took most offense at:

“	Myself and others have put too much effort into earning the title of fighter and have worked hard. Simple martial artists do not have the right to call themselves that as it is misleading and very disrespectful to the ones that are.	”

IMO anyone who doesn't put time or effort into their art has no right to call themselves martial artist. But I took your words to mean anyone who does traditional martial arts as opposed to boxing or MMA cannot call themselves a fighter. If this was not what you meant, then we can drop the argument and get back to arguing over the usual stuff.

And now, on the subject of cross training --

In general, a traditional instructor wants beginning students to stick with one art and develop a foundation and a good understanding of the art's theory before branching off into other styles. It's better for the student.

However, I have never been told -- and I am in a traditional school -- "you cannot study or cross-train other martial arts." What I HAVE been told is, "please talk to sifu before adding or changing to another art." The most traditional sifus will think you are sneaking behind their backs otherwise, and it can even cause trouble between schools (especially in TCMA) due to miscommunication.

As to weak or scared instructors: I think this is more evident in schools that try to teach all sorts of different styles, especially those that add styles like the flavor of the month. "Oh, we teach 43 different kung fu animals ... and next month we're adding MMA!" Someone who's really afraid of losing students to better schools will most likely do this, at least in the states. And he/she may demand that students only study there, or be shunned/cast out or whatever.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

my wing chun teacher is very open about this

if you want to train kicking go find a teacher to train you

if you want to train grappling go find some one to train you

if you want to train wing chun then i'm your man

he thinks cross training is something you should do in your own time not his

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

(43 styles of animal and next week mma)....

the sad part is that is what most cross training has become

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