Evolution of the fighter and fighting styles

Serve um' up daily.....

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: Wingnut my wing chun teacher is very open about this if you want to train kicking go find a teacher to train you if you want to train grappling go find some one to train you if you want to train wing chun then i'm your man he thinks cross training is something you should do in your own time not his	”

That's the mentality an instructor should have.

That's the way my master is, do what I want when I want as long as it's not during regular training time, though even then he likes me to trade my new skills with him and others.

That's the way I train my students, teach them our TMA, give them some MMA and tell them they should find what other arts/skills they like and train those as well.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

“	Also, in many eastern countries it is traditional that once you become a black belt/sash/senior in your style, you are encouraged and expected to move on and study other styles. It's only in the west that this was not as common or encouraged.	”

“	The examples of traditionally cross training are endless. IMO the difference is the time spent in one style before learning another.	”

I keep seeing this pop up and it totally defies what I am actually seeing.
If this is true and the paradigm was to travel and study many arts then these "ancient gurus of yore" obviously understood that each individual traditional style was lacking or stagnant and needed supplementing.
So, if the original premise was associated with that idea then why is the common reaction to that idea on this board so violently negative when it's brought up?

The first TMA reaction is vehemently against the idea and then suddenly the idea is strangely embraced by the TMA as if it was their idea all along.

“	MMA, Wing Chun, Boxing, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Greco Roman Wrestling, Olympic Wrestling, Kyokushin Karate, Shotokan Karate,etc.	”

Greco Roman wrestling is the oldest style we have on record... dating as far back as the Egyptians and even Sumerian culture.

“	I always thought it was just that, traditionally, you went, you lived with one guy, and you trained with him full time. Then, when you'd learned what he had to teach, you moved on.	”

That method is not really going to improve anyone's physical skill. It can add to knowledge but in order to improve physical skill one needs to be practically applying everything they are learning against a myriad of different opponents with full resistance. Bottom line, living with one old man and listening to him tell you to do drills isn't going to make anyone a better fighter.

Also, the notion of cross training, or training in multiple styles is not enough. The pitfall that many fall into is that they will compartmentalize the training and the application. They will train in a striking style and practice their striking against strikers and they will then turn around and train a grappling style against grapplers. Fights are won and lost in the transitions and the striking needs to be trained against someone trying to take you down and the grappling needs to be trained against someone trying to kick your teeth in. Compartmentalized training will lead to a compartmentalized fighter.

So, if one is training with a pure grappling coach who knows nothing about striking principles and a striking coach who knows nothing about grappling principles than you are still limited in your scope of understanding of principles. They will not understand how to apply striking against grappling or vice versa and in turn will not be able to impart that knowledge to anyone else. The student is left with a huge gap in his skillset.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Contradiction is a big part of martial arts. Its kind of like the English language in that there are all these rules...and then you end up ignoring the rules. For those not raised that way, its confusing and frustrating. I had a conversation the other night with my friend's wife who is from Malaysia about names and why my friend is called Jim instead of James and why my dad is called James instead of Jim. CMA tends to be this way with a lot of their attitudes as well.

For the most part though, I think that people are really proud of what they do. But they are so proud that they think that cross-training is admitting that their style isn't complete. In turn, they feel the need to justify and defend their style as if it was being attacked.

In truth, a lot of martial arts are lacking because they became specialized to their specific environment. For instance, old war-time kung fu styles do not deal with falling recovery and ground work because if they fell on the battlefield it is likely they would be stabbed or trampled. Going to the ground in this situation is game over. Nowadays, you have many proud teachers and students who can't accept the historical context of their art, which is not the healthiest way to approach it.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	I think that when we speak of cross training, the emphasis should be on taking principles from each of the 4 core ranges/techniques: striking, kicking, throwing and grappling/wrestling.	”

Don't forget submissions...

“	Admittedly the differences between Tai Chi and Muay Thai are enormous, but essentially they are covering a similair area of skill aren't they?	”

There is overlap, yes, but where key differences come in I think are the focus.
In a pure striking contset MT wins, in a wrestling contest TC wins. Even though they both cover striking and close range off balancing I think MT's clinch range stuff is better at the striking aspect and TC's close range stuff is better at maintaining balance and off balancing the opponent. A good mix of both would produce some well rounded skills.
Note: When I said wrestling above I meant as a throwing or off balancing contest, not actual ground fighting, as both MT and TC are very poor at that range.

“	If this was not what you meant, then we can drop the argument and get back to arguing over the usual stuff.	”

That was not what I meant. All fighters are martial artists but not all martial artists are fighters. I hope that one sentence explains my point a little better.

“	As to weak or scared instructors: I think this is more evident in schools that try to teach all sorts of different styles, especially those that add styles like the flavor of the month. "Oh, we teach 43 different kung fu animals ... and next month we're adding MMA!" Someone who's really afraid of losing students to better schools will most likely do this, at least in the states. And he/she may demand that students only study there, or be shunned/cast out or whatever.	”

The problem here is primarily financial. Losing students means losing money. The problem I have is when an instructor starts teaching MMA or grappling and has no clue as to what he is doing other than watching a few UFCs and then thinking he knows how to do a triangle choke and an armbar. I have come across a multitude of these guys teaching faulty or outright incorrect principles. The schools and instructors I associate myself with are what I call the progressive traditionalists. They see that there is a market and a void to fill within their school so they bring in a qualified instructor to teach a new curriculum instead of trying to do it themselves. Their school still benefits and the instructor benefits, also, because niw he is really being exposed to new stuff.

“	That's the mentality an instructor should have.	”

Yes and no. The mentality I have as an instructor is if they want to learn principles, I can teach them what they need to know taking into consideration all other principles (I covered the pitfalls of compartmentalized training in the post above). If they want to learn specific styles they will have to look elsewhere. I have never been against a student expanding himself.

Good post, Wraith. Welcome back.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara The schools and instructors I associate myself with are what I call the progressive traditionalists. They see that there is a market and a void to fill within their school so they bring in a qualified instructor to teach a new curriculum instead of trying to do it themselves. Their school still benefits and the instructor benefits, also, because niw he is really being exposed to new stuff.	”

Thanks Cam!

I think the above quote is really important. Martial Artists naturally develop HUGE egos...and its pretty obvious why. The old stereotype of a martial artist being humble is, in actuality, a rarity. Honesty to the art and to himself is something I value in an instructor. In Cam's above scenario the martial community is coming together to tussle for a bit so that they can come out the other end better for it.

Its not even disrespecting the art so long as the new "supplimental" techniques are treated as a compliment to the primary style. This is really how styles ended up evolving and adapting to the needs of their current practitioners.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon Its kind of like the English language in that there are all these rules...and then you end up ignoring the rules.	”

Well, not exactly. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

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Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare Well, not exactly. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.	”

You're telling me there's NOT a whole bunch of exceptions in the Martial Arts?

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

For valid reasons, traditional Sifu do not always encourage cross training (by definition I mean being a member of more than one martial art school). Despite what some believe these reasons are not always out of fear of their own inadequacies. The reasons are often quality control and to ensure that reputations are not harmed. These are some valid concerns that I have personally heard expressed on the subject:

1. Beginner students do not necessarily have sufficient grounding in their first art to start learning a second, without the possibility of regressing their learning in the first (thus wasting their and their teachers’ time).

2. The teacher of style A can not be certain that a student is not passing on his teachings (and misrepresenting them) to the students of teacher of style B.

3. In the community (particularly among the traditionally minded) a student’s behaviour in public (ie getting into fights and such) will reflect on the Sifu and his school. If that student is at more than one school the damage to the reputation of Sifu A may be unfairly earned, if it is in fact the students of Sifu B who are the local thugs and leading his student astray.

That said many Sifu encourage senior students (who they can trust not to misrepresent them) to find practitioners of other styles to spar with and learn from (exchange ideas).

Bottom line is most traditional Sifu are not interested in students who come along and see them as just one stop in the MA salad bar. Those students are a waste of their time.

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

cam : "Also, the notion of cross training, or training in multiple styles is not enough. The pitfall that many fall into is that they will compartmentalize the training and the application. They will train in a striking style and practice their striking against strikers and they will then turn around and train a grappling style against grapplers."

i appriciate what your saying

but suspect people who play that way

are dumb ar$es

why bother training different skill sets if your not prepared to mix them up ?

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

95% of the martial artists I have personally crossed hands with train that way, even most compartmentalized MMA fighters. Most do not cross train at all and the ones that do tend to compartmentalize. Consider yourself fortunate that you haven't encountered as many dumbasses as I have. It would seem I'm plagued with dumbasses....

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

lol

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	living with one old man and listening to him tell you to do drills isn't going to make anyone a better fighter.	”

LOL, you're just trying to provoke discussion. Your "one old man" usually owned a school - packed full of guys just itching to prove to the visitor that he knew nothing worth anything. So both sides learned.

“	It would seem I'm plagued with dumbasses....	”

You must be - it would explain an enormous amount.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Your "one old man" usually owned a school - packed full of guys just itching to prove to the visitor that he knew nothing worth anything. So both sides learned.	”

To be fair, you said

“	you lived with one guy, and you trained with him full time. Then, when you'd learned what he had to teach, you moved on.	”

That did not imply anything about a school or multiple students or anyone else with anything to teach.

“	You must be (plagued with dumbasses)	”

He said as he replied to me in this post................................

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	He said as he replied to me in this post................................	”

Lol, I just meant you seem to have met an awful lot of people who over rate their fighting ability. I can't go to a class without hearing the usual speech about martial arts not making any one invincible, all training having benefits, and don't think a few years hear makes you ready to get in the ring... It seems you never hear anything but the oposite.

Take this case in point - to me training with one guy means training in his school - you must have met several people to whom it meant training in a cave alone - to whom it meant that despite all the readily available historical evidence.

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Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me